a new build, a new year | 2.2L time has come
a new build, a new year | 2.2L time has come
Well i ended this year with a bang literally. Something i thought that would never happen in my lifetime has happened last weekend. I lost my BR 2.3L engine after 20,000 miles.
(approx 4 years)
Prior to the incident, the car was having fuel delivery issues where it would go 15-16 AFR full lean during the full throttle pull and the car would fall flat on its face and feel dead, but sound like it was trying to make power like a normal pull. sound familiar? i had this fueling issue a few months ago and replaced both pumps, both socks, inline filter, and even had the injectors flow tested.. how the problem returned is beyond me. post regarding it here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/10452979-post118.html
After experiencing this i took the car home and tried to diagnose it quickly. I was in a rush because i was trying to get the car to Cecil for their last track day. I disconnected the FPR line in hopes id notice something with the car running to see if the FPR was faulty or not, and to surprise nothing showed up wrong (no liquids in the lines).
next, i grab the laptop, log the car, take it around the block, a couple pulls were clean, one went lean (i think), then i heard this faint tick noise. i remember looking for loose change in my cars center console and so forth.. i knew something was odd. why i did the next thing im about to say i couldn't tell you.. but i decided to go WOT again and the engine let go.
What we think failed:
Both me and Aaron @ English Racing and a few other reputable builders i been talking to that make big #'s feel the JE piston failed which is why the rod is broken off at the wrist pin area. The pictures indicate the piston breaking off, then i believe the wrist pin stayed on to the rod and as the engine was trying to rotate it ripped apart the cylinder wall altogether which would be the reason for the bent rod and the top broken off.
During the issue i heard pieces flying, then smoke, then a second later a huge breakage.. that is when the block probably got ripped apart by the end of the rod with wristpin on, which is why that piece of the rod is broken off.. because the wrist pin was still in it and it ripped it right off.
I am currently disassembling and inspecting the block as it is. so far all the ACL rod bearings are great looking.. no damage or anything.. in fact you could reuse them and be fine.
To my surprise so far based on what i see from the rod journals, the crank looks good. there's not a single scratch on the crank. all rod journals came in at 1.771" so far.
the injectors are not clogged, they look visually good. the FPR im replacing and im sending the pumps to kinsler to get flow tested for piece of mind. when i removed the negative terminal on my battery in the trunk the negative terminal did break off.. i dont think that would cause the issue though since it didnt break until i went to remove it. i had to wiggle it alot and things tend to break in this cold weather.
Now im going to build a 2.2L and still deciding on internals, but it will most likely be a manley / wiseco hd combination.
The pistons & rods in this engine based on my odometer had around 20,000 miles approx 15,000 of hard abuse. around 3-4 years old. The crank had maybe 15k on it? The crank had to be replaced in 2010 due to running low on oil and spinning a rod bearing. it was my first time with a built engine and i was not told or knew that a built engine would consume more oil then a factory engine. i learned the hard way on that. info on that can be found here I take full responsibility for that though. its the owner job to maintain his own fluid levels in his vehicle.
SO all in all i feel i did get my moneys worth out of my engine and i have no regrets with it.
I know how to assemble/build my own engines now and will be doing everything myself now. I will also be replacing the supertech duals in the head for some Kiggly beehive springs since they are quieter and less aggressive to the valvetrain. The s3 cams need this to be quieter.
I should also note when the failure occurred i have logged everything, afr did not ever pass 11.8. and throughout that day afr's were within 11.2-11.4 range all day except when it leaned out due to either what i believe is the fpr taking a dump, bad hobb switch, or possibly a failing fuel pump already again (secondary on the hobbs).
Below are pictures of the carnage:
piston skirts look good.. no sign of detonation or any funny business going on there. however mic'ing the skirt area it seems its collapsed & failing.
heres before i actually removed the block from the car:
The head received some damage and is currently being repaired by http://www.midwestcylinderhead.com/ (Thanks Travis for the referral)
The entire hole in the block is from the rod digging into it. the manley turbo tuff's are extremely strong to dig through cast iron like that.
cheap rods snap, good ones bend. this one did both, but i feel no rod would be able to maintain itself at the wrist pin area in this circumstance.
I hit the pistons quick with wd40 and a paper towel for 5minutes and they look like new again. gotta love e85.
you can even see marker still where the one was labeled lol. (it reads STR short for stroker lol)
pretty crazy considering they are 20K miles old. that marking was put on their from BR back in 2009.
main bearing being mic'ed. 0.085" - all 10 were this thickness. used this later to find the main bearing clearance.
(this obviously didn't work, since the bearings are not flat. used bore gauge with bearings crushed in fixture to get my data instead)
dont mind scratches on main bearing in center, i was using a dial bore gauge to find clearance with bearings in
for reference to compare after i measured without.. normally you wont want to do this on good bearings. i wasnt
reusing these, so i didn't care.
somehow the crank survived! its 100% not scratched.. there's not a single blemish on it!
------------
I will post more bearing pics once i get around to it. I'll get a pic of each bearing in the pics. The #1 rod bearing (the one that had the piston fail on) was also flawless. rod bearing clearance was pretty normal and well within spec when mic'ing and calipering as well.
------------
A Little history on myself and 4g63's. I've been around these engines for around 12 years now (maybe not that long to some people) and this is the first real power failure ive ever experienced in 10 years with one. I never thought id see an engine blow before a headgasket. i have yet to blow a headgasket. It changes my perspective on the 4g63 just a little bit. they are not bullet proof.. and like any engine, they can and do fail sometimes.
The reason im going to try a 2.2L is because when I built Steves 4g64 aka 5leeperisah on here, i just really loved how smooth the engine operates. the 4g64 is such a well balanced engine, plus the blocks are very easy to come by. headgasket issues don't exist with a good tune either.. so im more then confident ill have no hg issues with one. Steve definitely doesn't on his.
im still debating on if i want to use the same manley i-beam turbo tuff rods or try something lighter like carillo or oliver etc.
I am going to switch out to a 3586R soon probably with a tial vband .82 A/R and go from there. eventually work my way up to the 3794R.
I think im going to break the new engine in with the fp black again though.
once i start building the engine i will document the progress. i love sharing what i do to my personal car. hopefully you guys will enjoy reading.
Special thanks to Aaron/Johnbradley for helping me out in choosing the right parts for my 2.2L.
(approx 4 years)
Prior to the incident, the car was having fuel delivery issues where it would go 15-16 AFR full lean during the full throttle pull and the car would fall flat on its face and feel dead, but sound like it was trying to make power like a normal pull. sound familiar? i had this fueling issue a few months ago and replaced both pumps, both socks, inline filter, and even had the injectors flow tested.. how the problem returned is beyond me. post regarding it here https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/10452979-post118.html
After experiencing this i took the car home and tried to diagnose it quickly. I was in a rush because i was trying to get the car to Cecil for their last track day. I disconnected the FPR line in hopes id notice something with the car running to see if the FPR was faulty or not, and to surprise nothing showed up wrong (no liquids in the lines).
next, i grab the laptop, log the car, take it around the block, a couple pulls were clean, one went lean (i think), then i heard this faint tick noise. i remember looking for loose change in my cars center console and so forth.. i knew something was odd. why i did the next thing im about to say i couldn't tell you.. but i decided to go WOT again and the engine let go.
What we think failed:
Both me and Aaron @ English Racing and a few other reputable builders i been talking to that make big #'s feel the JE piston failed which is why the rod is broken off at the wrist pin area. The pictures indicate the piston breaking off, then i believe the wrist pin stayed on to the rod and as the engine was trying to rotate it ripped apart the cylinder wall altogether which would be the reason for the bent rod and the top broken off.
During the issue i heard pieces flying, then smoke, then a second later a huge breakage.. that is when the block probably got ripped apart by the end of the rod with wristpin on, which is why that piece of the rod is broken off.. because the wrist pin was still in it and it ripped it right off.
I am currently disassembling and inspecting the block as it is. so far all the ACL rod bearings are great looking.. no damage or anything.. in fact you could reuse them and be fine.
To my surprise so far based on what i see from the rod journals, the crank looks good. there's not a single scratch on the crank. all rod journals came in at 1.771" so far.
the injectors are not clogged, they look visually good. the FPR im replacing and im sending the pumps to kinsler to get flow tested for piece of mind. when i removed the negative terminal on my battery in the trunk the negative terminal did break off.. i dont think that would cause the issue though since it didnt break until i went to remove it. i had to wiggle it alot and things tend to break in this cold weather.
Now im going to build a 2.2L and still deciding on internals, but it will most likely be a manley / wiseco hd combination.
The pistons & rods in this engine based on my odometer had around 20,000 miles approx 15,000 of hard abuse. around 3-4 years old. The crank had maybe 15k on it? The crank had to be replaced in 2010 due to running low on oil and spinning a rod bearing. it was my first time with a built engine and i was not told or knew that a built engine would consume more oil then a factory engine. i learned the hard way on that. info on that can be found here I take full responsibility for that though. its the owner job to maintain his own fluid levels in his vehicle.
SO all in all i feel i did get my moneys worth out of my engine and i have no regrets with it.
I know how to assemble/build my own engines now and will be doing everything myself now. I will also be replacing the supertech duals in the head for some Kiggly beehive springs since they are quieter and less aggressive to the valvetrain. The s3 cams need this to be quieter.
I should also note when the failure occurred i have logged everything, afr did not ever pass 11.8. and throughout that day afr's were within 11.2-11.4 range all day except when it leaned out due to either what i believe is the fpr taking a dump, bad hobb switch, or possibly a failing fuel pump already again (secondary on the hobbs).
Below are pictures of the carnage:
piston skirts look good.. no sign of detonation or any funny business going on there. however mic'ing the skirt area it seems its collapsed & failing.
heres before i actually removed the block from the car:
The head received some damage and is currently being repaired by http://www.midwestcylinderhead.com/ (Thanks Travis for the referral)
The entire hole in the block is from the rod digging into it. the manley turbo tuff's are extremely strong to dig through cast iron like that.
cheap rods snap, good ones bend. this one did both, but i feel no rod would be able to maintain itself at the wrist pin area in this circumstance.
I hit the pistons quick with wd40 and a paper towel for 5minutes and they look like new again. gotta love e85.
you can even see marker still where the one was labeled lol. (it reads STR short for stroker lol)
pretty crazy considering they are 20K miles old. that marking was put on their from BR back in 2009.
main bearing being mic'ed. 0.085" - all 10 were this thickness. used this later to find the main bearing clearance.
(this obviously didn't work, since the bearings are not flat. used bore gauge with bearings crushed in fixture to get my data instead)
dont mind scratches on main bearing in center, i was using a dial bore gauge to find clearance with bearings in
for reference to compare after i measured without.. normally you wont want to do this on good bearings. i wasnt
reusing these, so i didn't care.
somehow the crank survived! its 100% not scratched.. there's not a single blemish on it!
------------
I will post more bearing pics once i get around to it. I'll get a pic of each bearing in the pics. The #1 rod bearing (the one that had the piston fail on) was also flawless. rod bearing clearance was pretty normal and well within spec when mic'ing and calipering as well.
------------
A Little history on myself and 4g63's. I've been around these engines for around 12 years now (maybe not that long to some people) and this is the first real power failure ive ever experienced in 10 years with one. I never thought id see an engine blow before a headgasket. i have yet to blow a headgasket. It changes my perspective on the 4g63 just a little bit. they are not bullet proof.. and like any engine, they can and do fail sometimes.
The reason im going to try a 2.2L is because when I built Steves 4g64 aka 5leeperisah on here, i just really loved how smooth the engine operates. the 4g64 is such a well balanced engine, plus the blocks are very easy to come by. headgasket issues don't exist with a good tune either.. so im more then confident ill have no hg issues with one. Steve definitely doesn't on his.
im still debating on if i want to use the same manley i-beam turbo tuff rods or try something lighter like carillo or oliver etc.
I am going to switch out to a 3586R soon probably with a tial vband .82 A/R and go from there. eventually work my way up to the 3794R.
I think im going to break the new engine in with the fp black again though.
once i start building the engine i will document the progress. i love sharing what i do to my personal car. hopefully you guys will enjoy reading.
Special thanks to Aaron/Johnbradley for helping me out in choosing the right parts for my 2.2L.
Last edited by tscompusa; Feb 10, 2013 at 01:08 AM.
step #1 - remove engine & clean up mess - done
step #2 - Gather parts - in process
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4g64 block/core/oem crank arrived from AWD Motorsports
30min just cleaning it alittle with wd40 and some paper towels and it really doesnt
even need repainted. gotta love FL weather.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manley turbo tuff billet 94mm crank arrived
-----------------------------------------------------------
R&R Pro Billet Steel I-beam rods (159mm) /w ARP 625+ rod bolts (1200HP+ Rating) - ordered
These should be some badass rods. they are lighter then the 150mm manley turbo tuff's. I think they
are approx 620 grams a rod. The only thing that sucks is, they take 8 weeks to come.
step #2 - Gather parts - in process
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4g64 block/core/oem crank arrived from AWD Motorsports
30min just cleaning it alittle with wd40 and some paper towels and it really doesnt
even need repainted. gotta love FL weather.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Manley turbo tuff billet 94mm crank arrived
-----------------------------------------------------------
R&R Pro Billet Steel I-beam rods (159mm) /w ARP 625+ rod bolts (1200HP+ Rating) - ordered
These should be some badass rods. they are lighter then the 150mm manley turbo tuff's. I think they
are approx 620 grams a rod. The only thing that sucks is, they take 8 weeks to come.
Last edited by tscompusa; Jan 9, 2013 at 06:33 PM.
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 357
Likes: 17
From: Australia
Sad to hear this Tom but as they say, when one door closes another opens.
Considering that your engine is putting out 300hp per litre and some here are putting out 400 to 450 I'm amazed that this is not a more common occurrence. I see that you say that you now see that the 4g63 is not bulletproof but considering what is being asked of it it's pretty close. I'll be interested in see what you can come up with now and what components you decided on as this is a path I feel (or fear) I'll be walking in the next year or so (hopefully not the blowing up bit just the getting a built engine bit). Cheers.
Considering that your engine is putting out 300hp per litre and some here are putting out 400 to 450 I'm amazed that this is not a more common occurrence. I see that you say that you now see that the 4g63 is not bulletproof but considering what is being asked of it it's pretty close. I'll be interested in see what you can come up with now and what components you decided on as this is a path I feel (or fear) I'll be walking in the next year or so (hopefully not the blowing up bit just the getting a built engine bit). Cheers.
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Yes. Thanks again Aaron for answering all my questions over the phone + providing additional information over the past 4-5 yrs. I'm so glad i spoke to you. you put my mind to ease on a lot of things. i am extremely grateful. whats even more interesting is there is no rod knock on the cyl #1 rod bearing that went through the block! the bearings look the same as the rest! how the hell is that even possible lol. talk about strong rods. it ripped right through the iron block and barely bent + did not even effect the arp bolts. measuring the bolts by stretch they are at .005" right now.
I think im gonna stick to the stock crank this time around im not sure yet. I think the crank in the broken 4g63 is actually fine unless the main bearings are bad, but i dont think they will be, because there was no gold shavings in the pan, just a couple of piston pieces.
the reason i did not pull the crank fully yet, is because i bought another rod bolt stretch gauge and i want to test it on the cyl #3 to see how accurate it is. the current Jegs one i have i dont care for. the spring is to weak for it to clamp itself on the bolt and hold itself so you have to tq / remove / tq and it is not super consistent when you remove it and reapply it to the bolt, so i bought the arp one with the stronger spring to play with. some guys just drill a tiny bit on the rod bolt though because of this to get a more consistent reading.
Last edited by tscompusa; Dec 25, 2012 at 02:33 AM.
The two other people ive spoke to also said the same thing in regards to them.
In cold temps the car had brutal piston slap until it idled for atleast 10min. If you ask 5leeperisah he can confirm this. last year when i assembled his engine / car he couldn't believe how noisey it was when cold every night. i didn't think anything of it though.. in my mind at the time i had a bulletproof machine. and that was over a year ago!
having failures makes you really be more cautious and respect the car more. i used to take the car out when it was cold and beat on it.. this engine really lasted quite awhile for the abuse ive put it through.
Last edited by tscompusa; Dec 24, 2012 at 03:47 PM.
Thats crazy I can't even imagine. I've learned too that even though a motor is built, it doesnt mean its bullet proof or that detonation wont wreak havoc. A build and tune has to have all the right components to last. I'm starting to wonder if I should have gone with a 2.4 instead of a 2.3 because they seem to be more balanced.
I've heard a lot of built motors with aftermarket pistons have the dreaded piston slap at start up or cold temps. Is that normal or actually a sign of weakness to come?
I agree I don't ever beat on my car until its warmed up. Even with beefed up drivetrain parts its hard not to have that worry in that back of your mind that something could let go. After all at the end of the day it is still a 4 cylinder.
What are the 300M rods you're talking about? I've also heard that ACL or race bearings can be worse for your motor on a daily driver compared to a race oriented car. Like not using the parts to their full potential. Like driving an F1 car at regular speed around corners.
I've heard a lot of built motors with aftermarket pistons have the dreaded piston slap at start up or cold temps. Is that normal or actually a sign of weakness to come?
I agree I don't ever beat on my car until its warmed up. Even with beefed up drivetrain parts its hard not to have that worry in that back of your mind that something could let go. After all at the end of the day it is still a 4 cylinder.
What are the 300M rods you're talking about? I've also heard that ACL or race bearings can be worse for your motor on a daily driver compared to a race oriented car. Like not using the parts to their full potential. Like driving an F1 car at regular speed around corners.
I have no idea. they are notorious for wrist pin failures and collapsing the skirt though from what Aaron told me from his experience.
The two other people ive spoke to also said the same thing in regards to them.
In cold temps the car had brutal piston slap until it idled for atleast 10min. If you ask 5leeperisah he can confirm this. last year when i assembled his engine / car he couldn't believe how noisey it was when cold every night. i didn't think anything of it though.. in my mind at the time i had a bulletproof machine. and that was over a year ago!
having failures makes you really be more cautious and respect the car more. i used to take the car out when it was cold and beat on it.. this engine really lasted quite awhile for the abuse ive put it through.
The two other people ive spoke to also said the same thing in regards to them.
In cold temps the car had brutal piston slap until it idled for atleast 10min. If you ask 5leeperisah he can confirm this. last year when i assembled his engine / car he couldn't believe how noisey it was when cold every night. i didn't think anything of it though.. in my mind at the time i had a bulletproof machine. and that was over a year ago!
having failures makes you really be more cautious and respect the car more. i used to take the car out when it was cold and beat on it.. this engine really lasted quite awhile for the abuse ive put it through.
