not to worry APR has come through with the widebody kit and its on its way

Eric

 

Hmm, I may have to spectate on may 6th... Is there an entrance fee?

 

Wow, so only 3 laps. So one lap to warm tires and then to go for it for 2 laps.

What kind of tires will you be running? Can you run DOT compund tires? I would almost suggest running a autocross compound. Very soft and will heat up much quicker. And because you'll be running such a wide tire, it should hold up for all 3 laps.

Also, something I was thinking about to when I read about the width of tire you have choosen. Are you sure you need that much tire? Not only will you be adding a considerable amount of unsprung mass (wheel and tire) but maybe too big to get adequete tire temp for grip and more contact patch more drag down the straights.

Whatever tire you choose. Use nitrogen. PSI will not change as much when tire heats up.

As for rotation, your rear toe and camber is the correct way to dial in rotation. High tire psi will not use the whole tire, many negatives involved there. And stiffening up the rear wont always give you "rotation" but it will change the characteristics of the way the car responds.

The general misconception to rotation is throwing away rear grip to make the car rotate. The faster way is to dial in the front for more grip. Tire temps, camber and front downforce is the way.

A test day is the right way to do this. Id be glad to help with set up as well as instruction. Suspension setup within these type of competitions is ALWAYS overlooked. Just because one may buy a high dollar shock set-up doesnt mean it'll will work. Kind of like engine managment tunning. Cant just buy a EMS and plug it in and expect it to have the proper air/fuel, timing etc.

Im sure you understand. Just trying to help.

 

The first lap ends up being a combination of warm-up and find out how hard you can push it, so you make a mistake there and not on the official runs. I am 105% by the 2nd corner on the warm-up lap.

I would love to run an R-Compound, but not allowed.. It must be a street tire tread rating 140+ bought and stamped from a selection of specific brands from The Tire Rack. We will be running a 295/30/18 Yokohama Advan Neova. (For Time attacks, we will be running a Toyo Proxy)


Am I sure on the tire size.. nope.. i wish I could have a 375.

Being that I don't think we are getting enough rubber under the car.. I really don't see a problem with running a 295. BFGoodrich (Michelin), and Hoosier told Rober Carpenter and I that we would never make a 225/50/13 work on a 5-inch CRX rim, that it wouldn't build up heat, etc but that didn't stop him from gathering up 2 Pro Solo and 2 Solo national Championships. The cars pulled 1.28g on a skidpad, (stock springs and sway-bars) and I know for fact I could have mine at the full temp (150) (within 5' across the surface) in about 50 seconds of running. With a street tire that will overheat quickly anyway, Building up heat really isn't an issue. Last years Bridgestone Potenza RE050a's would take about 1/2 lap to get comfortable, and got "greasy" after about 8 laps, which wasn't an issue at One Lap.


In the roadrace cars I run we do, being that we get one car, and a small trailer to bring on a 4000 mile trip, a nitrogen bottle isn't amung the "must-haves" The tires tend to pick up 4-5psi over a run, and we just base our set-up on that. With so few laps, the small differences in moisture content between different compressors is negligible, we are not playing to that % of lap time precision. If I get a compressor on board, I will put one of the things that traps moisture, which I know works well enough to not hassle with Nitrogen. (Source: Dave W. 9-time SCCA Formula Continental Champion)

We will get as close as we can with an alignment on test-days, but with the fast-paced One Lap competition there isn't a lot of time for swapping parts, the other thing is for one driver a consistant car at different tracks is still a trump card over set-up. With the set-up we run the front camber goes to max (current camber kits are allowing for -3.6' to -4' and that isn't really enough.. so we don't worry about that on the trip, front toe I will adjust sometimes, and depending on the track I will adjust rear camber and toe, depending on time between runs. Air pressure and shock adjustments are minor, and fast. So yes they are a compromise in terms of being ideal, but a KISS philosophy is one I will adhere to. NASA Nationals in September when we will have 4 days and a couple of sessions per day.. expect to see me with the strings, plates and guages out.

Again we run into a problem of time issues and equipment at the track during the event. I want the front spoiler to be adjustable so I can play with it, and oyu are right, I would always want to add front grip before removing rear grip, On One Lap, where your front is pretty well optimized (or as close as you can get it) it again becomes a question of "what can I do right now." If downforce and front grip is available, I will take it.


In looking for what shock set-up to run, I have been pushing to have a shock that can be revalved here in the states (or like a Penske, shims changed on site with guides to pinpoint your valving) I have also asked him for 4 of every spring rate between 8k and 16k I expect the whole year to be a testing and building program, with two very different set-ups for the One Lap Street Tire competition, and the Time Trial/Time Attack R Compound sessions. I am probably looking forward to the testing and fine tuning as much as I am the competitions.

I started racing in Karts, then went to Honda CRXs, Formula Fords, and then an E-Production CRX.. you never make HP out of those things, so I was always looking for grip. I figure if I can focus on going after grip in the AMS Evo, that combined with martin's ability to find gargantuan levels of Horsepower, we will have a very potent combo.

I do understand and love the suggestions, it is always great to have new ideas and another brain and ears listening.

Jon K
www.racerjon.com

 

Wow Jon,

E Production, Hondas..... We have a lot in common!

I currently run a 92 Honda Prelude in E-Production. 2005 CENDIV natl champ. 2005 we won 5 races, set track records at Blackhawk (1:15.9), Road America (2:29.9), IRP (1:42.8) and St. Louis (I believe it was a 1:06). We were the #1 "pick to win" for the runoffs and led 11 out 13 laps, I was hit under braking, 1st corner after restart, and went off track. But, thats racing!!

I love DSM's, been a DSM guy since 98,99. I love my EVO. Time attacks, and especially the one lap have always been interesting for me, but no way I'd be able to participate along with preparing/racing my EP car. So when I started reading about yours, and AMS is basicly 2hrs away, I figured to drop in my 2 cents. But it sounds like you have a good amount of experience yourself!

About the tire, we run a 23x9x15 slick under a 2300lb car. 9" tread width. A 285/30/18 will be 11". Tire temps for our slicks are always at least 180 but usually 190-210 area upfront on Goodyear 600's. Good year says at least 175 before the tire reaches optimum grip, 230 is danger. But I guess 11" isnt too big might be just right. As for nitrogen, I figured that would allow you to set almost hot psi. But you know where I was going with that.

But as for going 105% by the 2nd corner, I'd slow it down. You shocking the surface of the tire rather than heating the carcas. A street tire doesnt just overheat, you can make it work by being gentle. If you overheat your tire on the 1st lap due to shocking your next 2 laps will be slower. World Challenge TC and GT used to run on street toyos for 30min sprint races, taking care of the tire was criticle. I ran a realtime intega type r at RA during that time, it was something to get used to coming from slicks. But again, you have enough experience to make your own decision here.

Stings, plates, gauges etc. Great! Again, you know what Im talking about. That sounds like a good amount of static camber, I wish I could see some tire temps and listen to your +/- of the way the car is handleing.
The splitter, I can help with making a new one or stiffening the one that comes with your kit. My teamate is in the racing composite industry, Prototype Composites.

As for the CRX, Its quite a car for FP now! 12:1, 1950lbs!

See you at RA?

 

Yea.. I wish I had gotten to put more into that ride, we were on a set of Off the shelf Koni Yellows and got within 0.9 seconds of the track record at Roebling Road.. Car was right at weight, 155whp, and after two engine losses the owner threw his hands up and didn't want to spend any more $. Despite me pleading with him to dry-sump it.. he didn't feel we needed to spend the $.. (8999rpm is fine on a stock CRX oil pump, 9000 is not)

Martin told me about talking to you and the Prelude and I said.. "ah I know who that is" Great job making the Honda run with that group, I am glad you are representing for the honda crowd.

I was converted to a Mitsubishi/DSM guy in 2003 when a friend of mine asked me to run his Evo in One Lap, he was a hard-core DSM fanatic, and knew I would do a better job of competing in it than he would.. So we went out, got Dealership Sponsorship and I carried a bone stock (not so much as an alignment) Evo to 16th overall and 3rd in class. I was so amazed with what it was able to do that I really fell in love..

This is actually something that I hadn't thought about so much.. Though I should probably clarify what 105% is.. it is going into corners harder than I htink I might be able to, to see what the limits of the car are, and to put heat in the tire (Last year the Bridgestones did need about 1/2 lap to get comfortable. Where most of the laps were my first on track, i don't know it 105% in my head is actually 105% of what the car can do, so I may not be shocking them so much.

The other part about this in comparison to ultimate lap times is that for all but two of the tracks last year, i either had 0 laps or less than 8 laps on them at speed. Was I getting the "ultimate lap"? No.. but was the practice going hard better than what it would be if I tried to get the tires perfect.. maybe.. The only way of testing would be to do testing each way on a brand new track to me.. If I had all day, and/or knew the tracks better I would take more time to "work up" to speed.

This year I have driven on all but two of thr tracks, so it is a more realistic approach.

I have been going over IRP and the lock-up in my head a LOT, trying to figure out what I induced, and what was the car.. The odd thing was that it was rear lock-up, not front, which surprised me. I think some of that was caused by the springs being a bit soft, and LOTS of weight transfer.. the next thought of course is my own experience with 150+ mph and street tires.. which at that point was none.. Everything I had done at those speeds was on full blown slicks. I jumped on the brakes hard, and it upset the car.. with the street tires I think now it has to be much more of a "low-threshold-low" braking pressure to not surprise and overload the tires quick. It is harder to overload the tires of course in a 2000 lb car w/downforce on slicks.

I am hoping that a proper spring rate combo, and changing of my street-tire braking style will keep it from happening.

The car was having issues getting to Apex as you saw, which we were working on, and it was driving way more like a rwd car than a fwd with that amount of HP (it was horrible in the rain at Roebling) IRP was the 2nd day in the car with that set-up on a road course, so I know it had a long way to go. (We did a day at Autobahn with it, no front LSD, and 60 laps) Later in the week the videos looked and I felt a lot better, we were just babysitting the headgasket so I don't have times to show for it.

Another note on the spool coming up, good observation, as the week/sessions went on, we were actually changing timing curves to make the care more driveable at low RPM. I can't be thankful enough that Martin was there to change the maps after each session to make the car more driveable. (I try to talk to people about "tuning for handling" but most don't get it.. with these high-hp cars, it is as important as shocks and everything else I think)


Yea, I am worried about the APR Splitter being more of a show piece than a full-blown competition tool.. but am waiting till I see it to pass full judgement.

Having you as a resource will be great, I have messed with a few wings and a couple of Diffusers on a Formula Car, but other than that My experience in this area is lacking. I have a lot of Ideas, but aero changes the rest of the car so much when done right that I am proceding slowly.

I haven't driven on Motons yet, but talking to people I know with them on Porsches and S2000 Autocross cars I hear nothing but great things. For what to choose, I was trying to think of AMS, and the ability to use the car as a marketing platform.

My thoughts were.. if we can go with something like Tein.. though not as specalized as Moton, or Penske.. there is a much bigger market for customers. I figure if AMS can start with a base shock that is obtainable to the masses and work it up to a custom shock, that still kicks ***, then it would help with customer sales.. How many sets of Motons would AMS sell in a year? 2? 3? Penskes. 1? How many sets of Teins or the like might they sell? It could be dozens.. (this is my marketing mind taking over my driving mind)

The CRX sounds great, I think it can be an awesome FP car. Thats the limited prep car right?

I really hope to make it to Road America, I looked at plane tickets last night and talked to Martin about airport pick-up and such, I am waiting on the F-body club to e-mail me back with answers to my questions about sharing a car or something before I make a final decision.

Jon

 

If you can talk AMS into fabbing an adjustable front splitter that mates to a full engine undertray, I'd be willing to share some of the costs (outside of having one fabbed for me as well).

I was going to look into drawing up plans on one, but due to various issues with my car ... ahem ... I haven't had access to it for quite some time. I would like to see an aluminum undertray that goes from the front lip all the way to the first cross-bar (or even both), retains the brake air guides (so it works with the brake air guides) and then mount a front splitter to that (one that simply can be slid forward or backwards). The whole assemby should be mounted to the frame of the car with some kind of secondary frame to cleanly mount the undertray to...

l8r)

 

I was thinking exactly like that.. same type of system, because we can adjust the ballance with that fairly well.

There are some other questions I have about underbody stuff with the Evo (specifically cooling with so much drivetrain) so I have been doing research with caution.

Jon

 

If you really look at the stock piece, it's pretty well designed (apart from the 2 billion plastic fasteners, hehe). The beatrush undertray isn't too bad either, but IIRC it's steel or sheetmetal and doesn't feature any kind of splitter.

l8r)

 

Yea, I like the factory piece.. it just needs to be lower and extend out about 4 inches. and be adjustable.

K let me rephrase.. I like the factory piece as far as factory pieces go.

 

I just looked at the One Lap site.. this year's trip is 3974 miles total.

The longest overnight drive is from Mid America Motorplex in Iowa, to No Problem Raceway in Louisana and is 1009 miles.

The shotest overnight drive is 215 Miles, from US 41 Dragway to Road America on the 11th. (taking us right through Chicago, but at about 10:30pm)

We will make 12 stops, including a passage control in Midway, Georgia.
There are two skidpad contests, an asphalt oval, a drag strip (for bracket and low ET contest) and 7 road courses. 19 competitions will make up the event.

For AMS, the week will include the Redline Time Attack at BeaveRun, so for the 10 days it will be over 5000 miles of travel. (Leave the shop, back to the shop)

This still won't be the highest Milage I have done for a One Lap, in 2003 I helped put 6000 miles on a stock evo in 8 days. (Car was 6 weeks old and had 11,000 miles on it)

Jon K

 

also.. a little birdie told me that the wide body arrived and is going on the car.

Jon

 

I've been thinking what might make a good splitter, would be something like a strip of high/low density polyethylene that mounts to the same fasteners as a lip would, using "L" shaped brackets. It would sit perpendicular to the ground.

I guess this would actually be more of an "air dam" than a splitter.

The advantage I see over the typical carbon fiber splitter piece, is if you got the material and thickness correct, it wouldn't deform much at speed, and would be flexible enough for occasional contact with the track and the rumblers. Another advantage is you could play with the height of the dam to find what works best. Finally, it should be cheap and easily replaceable.

Just an idea.

 

nubby, I don't think your idea would work for several reasons:

1.) a splitter creates downforce by building up airpressure above the lip that extends in front of the car, not by eliminating air from under the car

2.) if you're going to make your air dam hard enough to resist deforming from air pressure, then it will be too hard to effectively flex when it comes into sudden contact with the ground, and it will be shredded, just like any other splitter

jon,

check out this: http://www.bulletproofautomotive.com...il.php?ID=3968
it's what you NEED. Would be very easy to mount a splitter onto that undertray.

l8r)

 

The SCCA Improved touring cars use a balsa or such wood wrapped in composites for a splitter.. they can take some abuse and some damage but still be functional it seems. Though.. after a while.. splitters are going to need to be replaced. Simple fact of life.

hmm.. that Piece looks nice, though I wonder why the strakes there.. looking at LM cars and undertrays they have that part that deflects air over the tires, but dont have the strakes. I know strakes help at the rear, but that is when you are exiting air from under the car totally, just wondering they whys of the strakes on that piece.

Also, those nuts/bolts whatever that attach need to be countersunk, but I guess that is up to the person installing it.

Other than that... I like it.

Jon