Agree on the modulate braking and reference points comments. I tend to drive be a combination of feel and reference points. With passing happening a lot, you have to constantly modify your line and turn-in points. Sometimes this helps you find a new line though!
Have someone jump-in with ya and do a ride-along if possible. Works wonders!


Got a few points others haven't mentioned:

• -Be sure to use the entire track! If you have 1 foot of track-in or track-out left, then you missed your line by 1 foot. Know what I mean?

• -Late apex for a better turn. Note this is the fastest way through a majority of turns, but not the safest. Not recommended the first time out on a course obviously.

 

this quote is of interest. As soon as you mess up any part of a turn you can not longer consider your exit speed good but only "the best it could be under the circumstances"

A good turn entry speed and setup is done by these steps IMO.

(1) the first thing you need to learn is how to take the turn. don't worry about where to brake. Brake early to a defined speed and gear, then take the turn full out.

(2) repeat step one until you have the right gear and the right line through the turn.

(3) slowly approach the entry faster and faster until you are threshold braking right until you let off to go through the turn. any trail braking should feel natural and not forced.

now let me talk more about being an intermediate driver.

I have found that a lot of intermediate drivers will take a turn the following way
(1) setup on the outside
(2) aim and shoot directly towards the apex
(3) scrub speed past the apex as the exit the turn under full throttle. tires making a lot of noise.

you're using the whole track, but you're not going fast even though your tires are maxed out.

I had this problem big time.. I was going fast and passing a lot of cars, but my line sort of sucked and I'd often be right on a slower car's *** all the way through a turn and then they would lost me on the exit as I scrubbed speed.
So I got an advanced instructor to come for a ride and he helped me a lot. He made my put tape around the top of the steering wheel. then we watched how much input I was using on the wheel. I had it all wrong and was only going to 10 and 2 on the clock where I should have been going 9 and 3 really in a lot of cases (this is really scary at high speeds). So I worked on using more steering input to get past the apex and not "to the apex". I started out slower and figured it all out again. then I started adding speed back in and got a lot faster and also more fluid. My exit speeds improved so much that I often had to enter turns a gear higher just so that I didn't run out of revs on the exit.

let me just end on saying that getting everything right cannot be summed up on a forum with a few easy steps... books could and have been written on the subject. Just keep looking for weaknesses in your turning and when you feel you have everything right get an expert instructor out there and ask him to simply make a list of things you are doing wrong then start over until you're faster. get as many instructors as you can because I've found that sometimes what works for one car is wrong for another so try all the styles out and get all the perspectives. going from a beginner to intermediate is a lot easier then going from intermediate to advanced.

 

First let me state ahead of time that I'm bike guy (AMA expert/pro licensed). But, I've got about 30 odd track days under my belt in various cars so I might be able to throw some useful input your way. There has be some good info on this posted thread so for. But it's only useful to someone who has complete confidence in their ability as a driver and can apply the what was said on a consistent bias. I also wouldn't recommend using every inch of tarmac on the track and piece of the traction pie, yet either. Because using them at this point would not give you the space needed to correct a mistake before stuffing it into a crash barrier. So here's my advice to your questions.

1) Using late braking depends the corner. You have to take in account the radius, camber, setup, entry speed, exit, etc..... of the corner. By late braking you aren't necessarily increasing your corner entry speed as much as you are altering the the line you have to take to through the it. I'm sure everyone here knows that a corner can be divided into four sections (braking, entry, steady state, and exit), but I doubt that everyone how each phase effects one another. In a car like the evo late braking is just going to lead to understeer because of the extra weight on the front wheels during corner entry, which in turn is going slow your mid corner and exit speed. That said, late braking is also a relative term to the individuals driving skill. As an example my latest braking point on turn 8 at Willow Springs is probably twenty feet before the normal braking point of someone like Leh.

2) Smoothness is everything!! Braking not only slows you down but it controls the weight transfer of the car. The smoother you are with your inputs the easier time your tires have dealing with the weight transfer. Now I'm going to contradict myself here, but I've found that being a little harsh with the steering and braking inputs in some situations with the Evo helps avoid some of the corner entry understeer by getting the back end to slightly step out.

3) Don't worry about dropping to much speed for a corner, in fact, think of it as a safety margin. I can't count the amount of times that I've seen people in the tire wall because their ego out weighed their skilled. Don't fall for the invincible feeling the evo gives like so many others have. Your first priority on the track should be keeping your car in one piece, not speed. Practice and master threshold braking from a safe distance before you start going in deep enough to trail brake, then slowly adjusting your points as your confidence allows. I know this sounds boring, but it really is just helping improve your driving to the point of being able to deal with the "Oh Sh!it Moments" that go hand in hand with going fast. If you ever do time attacks or a qualifying lap you'll realize that each corner is an OSM if you want to be anywhere near the top.


I like you said "experience and seat time play big roles". We could give tips and advice to you for ten pages, but all of it would is worth nothing if you don't have the skill or experience to apply it. Get about seven or eight track days under your belt where you focus on the feel of your car, how it reacts inputs in different situations, and hitting the points (braking, turn in, apex, etc) you've chosen. After that start focusing more on the line you're taking and deeper braking points along with other skills that lead to faster lap times. I know I will ever be a professional driver, but I think it's cool to be able to correct what seems to be the biggest fnck up in the world with one deliberate flick of the wheel (How do those WRC guys do that?) and no drama. Personally, my motivation is to just feel as comfy in a car as I do on a bike.

 

Simple.

brake less.

 

I agree on this point. They actually compared the different driving styles of all the rally car drivers and they noticed nothing exciting about how sebastian loeb drives the peugeot/citroen. just smooth transition, no fancy braking, no fancy footwork or drifting and still better times. he hardly brakes btw.

 

Wow, two words answer. That's exactly what I was looking for. I think you are absolutely right about it though, because I started to realize that I am over-breaking into some corners that I could brake a lot less... I have 3 day events coming up next weekend and I am gonna count 3 from my normal breaking points and then move my foot over to the break. Let's see if I can come back in one piece...

 

Do you know if he uses any left-foot braking by any chance?

 

Simple way to get the evo to turn in..... use the old SCANDINAVIAN FLICK!!!!

hehe just kiddin, dont kill yourself.

Cheap and easy, max out front neg camber and run 0 to -1 deg rear camber. Toe out the front 1/8th.

A good shock really helps control the body movement with corner entry so thats why your having trouble with the stock setup.

Kyle

 

haha, a little humor always helps.

I've found that i basically have one braking force, and thats ON.

Sure, i brake a wee bit harder at times, but I don't have the finesse to touch, and then back on the gas. So i've been working on that one too.

Instead of bailing deeper into the corner, try braking at the same spot with the hard brake force, getting it done, then back on the gas earlier than you'd think possible. This will give you a true speed (or RPM) to navigate the turn in. Screws your speed down the straight you just exited, but gives you the best possible run outta the corner. After you get used to making that run outta the corner, THEN adjust your braking points forward.

 

Hi Kyle,

I think that we met before at LRP during PDA event in April. I am the guy who asked you to drive my car for a few laps to learn from you... (although it didn't happen) The event master told me it was ok to do that in the first place, then came back to me and said it was not ok.

Anyways, I am already running max neg cambers (-2.2 F and -1.2 R with zero toe all around) with the stock set-up. I am really tempted to try some coilovers, but I made a promise to myself not until I can break 63 @LRP with the stock suspension...I might give it up and go for some nice suspensions though as my talent is not so good...

Sung

 

Thanks for your advice. I will try to apply the technique that you just mentioned...
I have to say that out of all the techniques, I find breaking most difficult and important to learn... I still gotta work on my smoothness with the breaking.

I think that I need to buy a camcorder that I can use to record my runs, so that I can use that clip to give better ideas to some of you where I am at and what I am doing wrong... Any recommendation to which cam I should get? Thanks.

 

Put a nice stiff sway bar on the back if you haven't already.

 

a camera is great, but if you can find somebody else that runs local (or do it all yourself) and get something like the traqmate, or any of the other data units.

I say undoubtedly, it's helped me a ton, and you can move it from car to car, and get data on yourself.

 

ahhh yes... I remember. I'm sure I would be able to take you for a ride next time we meet up at a PDA event. I now have my competition license with NASA/PDA so they know me very well now.

Def come grab me for a session next time you see me.

Kyle

 

i remember carting with an instructor watching. he noted that i would deviate from the theoretical best line then spend lots of energy getting back onto the line. i would make a mistake worse by trying to hard to "fix" it as though there were only one appropriate place to be on the track.

if you're getting good at exit speeds, maybe you could start by adjusting your corner exit since you seem to have the best handle on that. create that slightly different exit by thinking about what corner entry and steady state cornering you'll need to do to achieve that exit.

perhaps experimenting within that framework could help you with being more comfortable with a variety of corner entries and the options you give yourself with the car in a particular attitude at corner exit. then in the long run you'll hopefully find the entry and mid corner speed that gives you the exit result you want.