Has anyone heard of this term or has experience with one? Recently, I was in a karting race where one of the corners was a 180 degeree corner. It started after a long straight and after the 180, it was another long straight. The course at that point was confined, which cause me to through the kart into the corner. It worked fine, but I was wondering if anyone else had experience with it.

 

If it was a single 180 corner, there should've been no sacrificing of the corner needed... But anyone who's had decent track experience would know all about it.

 

It was a single 180, but its like there wasn't enough room to make a smooth transition, coupled with a oversteering kart. Remember that karting is more of a momentum style of driving, and smoothness is the key to speed.

 

It wouldn't be considered sacrificing a corner though. More of changing your line. Typically I've noticed the miatas on track (momentum driven) are staying out wider for 180 corners, and with all the gokarting I've done I've never run into an area where the track isn't a good size bigger than the kart, so I take 180s the way I normally do. How tight of a 180 is this? A total hairpin? Are you sure it wasn't a late or early apex? From the sound of that it may have been a late apex corner, or one you need to take as a late apex, which still isn't sacrificing a corner.

This is a case where you would end up sacrificing a corner, as is the case with most chicane/slalom type corners:


And from what I've found online it does look like even a basic normal 180 sweeper that's semi-tight should be taken as a late apex in a kart. Like so:

 

You know what, now that I thought of it in a car aspect, you could think of that as sacrificing the first part of the corner for the second part...

You take a smaller radiused circle to then make your exit circle bigger, which, as you said, would help on a momentum driven car, since you can build your momentum for longer on the bigger exit circle.

 

Your bottom picture is exactly how I would try to take the corner, but for some reason the run out seemed cramped, and if i tryed to pinch it a little more the back end would eek out a hair. I suppose I'm a little pissed about it because I was the heavy weight points leader at the time. In this race I ended up 3rd in heat B. I think partially it was the kart too.

Also, it seemed that my fastest laps were obtained by holding the gas and the brake at the same time to keep the clutch engauged(sp?). Where normally I don't trail brake as much.

 

To be honest, the problem with me giving advice on karting is that I've noticed that karts all differ about as much as cars do. I've driven stupid probably 2 hp indoor carts on sealed cement, and I've driven karts w/ plenty of power on a 90 mph asphault kart track.

If you ever practice on that track try taking the corner even slower on exit and speeding out even more, like you would in the Evo. I've noticed with the Porsche and the rear engine that the car actually almost can be on the gas sooner than I was on the Evo, but it has to be SUPER stable before then, otherwise the back end likes to get crazy.

(Engaged, but no big deal). Trail braking is even trickier of a thing, IMO. Every car I've been in, and I've driven a decent amount from instructing and what not, have all enjoyed, or hated, differing amounts of trailbraking. I have never been in a kart fast enough for me to need to be on the brakes too much more than a quick tap (meaning never thought about trailbraking) but I can see it being of some benifit on some corners.

 

The karts in my league are about 5 hp, so about 40-50 mph, 50 if the axles are straight and we run indoor on an asphault track. It's a league where you qualify in one kart, then race in another kart, in attempts of keeping it as equal as possible.

Thinking about the "180" more though the day, it was more of a true hairpin turn which is how I was thinking of it, but conveyed it incorrectly. In my minds eye the dimensions were off a little. and now thinking about the "trail braking style" I used for faster laps. I don't think it was the trail braking that made me fast, but the smoothness of putting the power down. Basically kept the power from acting like an on/off switch, which helped the back end stay a little more in control.

It's funny that you mentioned Porsche. The last time at the track, I had a guy who seemed like he was training some other guys. We talked about my lines. He mentioned that he tried to follow me, but he just couldn't keep up. After talking with him for a few I told him I'd let him follow me a little bit and I'd keep him close enough so he could have a peak. Turns out he was an instructor for some of the Porsche HPDE. It made my day.

Different direction for a moment if you will. Do you think that, "Momentum" style driving works in all types off cars? Would you, or do you change your style from EVO to Porsche?

 

Being faster than instructors was always fun. First cool car I got around in the Evo was a 996 Turbo, instructor driven... Made my day when he came up to me (at the time 18 yrs old) and said "Wow, YOU were driving THAT thing, and I couldn't shake you off."

Momentum style driving definitely "works" but it definitely isn't always the fastest. I have driven a very very wide range of cars on track from instructing people. Of course, most of my experience has been in my dad's old race-prepped S2000, the Evo, and the Porsche. The style from the Evo to the Porsche is more similiar than from Evo to other cars, simply because the Porsche is also AWD. While I haven't driven a X or a JDM Evo with AYC, the way people describe it working is almost how the Porsche seems to work with Porsche Stability Management turned off.

The MOST different car I drove was a stock newer M5. Loads of power, loads of weight, but still decent handling and brakes. For the most part its the same deal unless you have something like a miata or an elise that you can sling around corners via momentum driving, but the obvious stuff like braking points, acceleration points, and the exact lines change from car to car. Like with the M5: I had to be VERY careful with when I tried accelerating because of the high-powered RWD, same with the S2000 until we had racing slicks on it.

So, to try to sum it all up before I blab on for 3 pages: every car I"ve driven on track, or even just spirited around town, has required a change, as slight as it may be some times, in driving style. Same as every kart I've driven, I am very fast in the rental karts out at the asphault track that's right by the car track out here, but the few indoor cement ones we have I am horribly slow at, mostly because I'm TOO lightweight to keep the kart from sliding around everywhere.