Driving Techniques Dos and Don'ts
Jan 19, 2004, 06:07 PM
#33
Originally posted by forty
when i shift as around 3k it kind of sounds like my car is gurgling and lacks torque, when it was stock it didnt seem to do this, but after intake, exhaust and test pipe it seems to do this specially when shifting from 1st into 2nd. right now my gas light is on and i have drove 312 miles on the tank, and i do notice when i drive hard that is goes down to about 260-280 to the tank..
like i said this is my first vehicle being a stick, so i have pretty much tought myself. i will shift sooner and see how that works on the engine.. if it matters, i always warm my car up when ever it is cold and drive soft till the meter hits about normal temp.
when i shift as around 3k it kind of sounds like my car is gurgling and lacks torque, when it was stock it didnt seem to do this, but after intake, exhaust and test pipe it seems to do this specially when shifting from 1st into 2nd. right now my gas light is on and i have drove 312 miles on the tank, and i do notice when i drive hard that is goes down to about 260-280 to the tank..
like i said this is my first vehicle being a stick, so i have pretty much tought myself. i will shift sooner and see how that works on the engine.. if it matters, i always warm my car up when ever it is cold and drive soft till the meter hits about normal temp.
Jan 19, 2004, 06:13 PM
#34
Originally posted by sdhotwn
When I shift I tend to spool the engine clear to 5800 (I think... mind blanking now that I type it) if I'm driving hard. Reason being that the gear ratios in our car usually drop you about 2500 to 3000 rpms coming off the shift.. The trick is that our lancers have all their torque concentrated from about 3200 rpms to 4500 rpms. You can also get it to spool through the rpms a little faster at the top with the acceleration you have given yourself. I've played with shifting at different points when trying to get going fast. I think a good example is the fact that if you are at 60 mph and have to execute a pass you can drop to third gear to get the best kick, but you run out of it real fast and need to get to 4th to finish the pass. I think at that drop you are running almost 4.5K so that's my two cents.. but please do correct me if you think I'm crazy
Also... from a mech engineering student (me) the reason for break in is to correctly polish and lubricate all the journal bearings (two smooth surfaces seperated by about a thousandth of an inch of oil and nothing else) before they undergo heavy stresses that could compromise the quality of the surface. For those who felt that breaking it in hard right away was best... well the reason is because you wear in the patterns faster from the stresses and thus things move and run smoother... but that doesn't mean they were worn in BETTER.
Lastly... the rev limiter on our engines protect us from most of the possibility of damage to the car. As long as you aren't pegging it up there at 6000K then you aren't likely to cause too much damage. The rev limiter is at 6.5K last time I glanced after hitting it because I was concentrating on other things.
When I shift I tend to spool the engine clear to 5800 (I think... mind blanking now that I type it) if I'm driving hard. Reason being that the gear ratios in our car usually drop you about 2500 to 3000 rpms coming off the shift.. The trick is that our lancers have all their torque concentrated from about 3200 rpms to 4500 rpms. You can also get it to spool through the rpms a little faster at the top with the acceleration you have given yourself. I've played with shifting at different points when trying to get going fast. I think a good example is the fact that if you are at 60 mph and have to execute a pass you can drop to third gear to get the best kick, but you run out of it real fast and need to get to 4th to finish the pass. I think at that drop you are running almost 4.5K so that's my two cents.. but please do correct me if you think I'm crazy
Also... from a mech engineering student (me) the reason for break in is to correctly polish and lubricate all the journal bearings (two smooth surfaces seperated by about a thousandth of an inch of oil and nothing else) before they undergo heavy stresses that could compromise the quality of the surface. For those who felt that breaking it in hard right away was best... well the reason is because you wear in the patterns faster from the stresses and thus things move and run smoother... but that doesn't mean they were worn in BETTER.
Lastly... the rev limiter on our engines protect us from most of the possibility of damage to the car. As long as you aren't pegging it up there at 6000K then you aren't likely to cause too much damage. The rev limiter is at 6.5K last time I glanced after hitting it because I was concentrating on other things.
Jan 19, 2004, 06:54 PM
#35
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Originally posted by machron1
I don't know about everyone else but my car doesn't hit the rev limiter till about 7,500 rpm, and it's a pretty nice soft limiter too. My last car did 107mph in 3rd gear, so when i dropped my EVO in 3rd to pass someone on the freeway i felt the power drop out up top...I forgot it was geared so low.
I don't know about everyone else but my car doesn't hit the rev limiter till about 7,500 rpm, and it's a pretty nice soft limiter too. My last car did 107mph in 3rd gear, so when i dropped my EVO in 3rd to pass someone on the freeway i felt the power drop out up top...I forgot it was geared so low.
May 5, 2004, 03:28 PM
#37
Left foot braking on a 107whp FWD car... Isn't smart unless if your going high speeds while drinking coffee around 90 Degree corners.... You can control your Ebrake alot better than your left foot on the brake... Rally car drivers use it because they're trying to control a rediculous amount of HP.... So they try and slow down and go in sharply into turns at the same time.... Usually... Rally Car people use Heel toeing though.
Just a note: USE THE EBRAKE TO MAKE QUICK TURNS.
But meh. All these crazy tricks should be left on an empty parking lot.... None of this should be on the real road.. Because one time someone almost killed me by doing a stupid 180 ebrake in the middle of the highway (He tried to do a 360 turn to look kewl.. But meh, he just turned out looking like an idoit and someone that I'm scared to get into the car with)
Just a note: USE THE EBRAKE TO MAKE QUICK TURNS.
But meh. All these crazy tricks should be left on an empty parking lot.... None of this should be on the real road.. Because one time someone almost killed me by doing a stupid 180 ebrake in the middle of the highway (He tried to do a 360 turn to look kewl.. But meh, he just turned out looking like an idoit and someone that I'm scared to get into the car with)
May 5, 2004, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Dem_z
Left foot braking on a 107whp FWD car... Isn't smart unless if your going high speeds while drinking coffee around 90 Degree corners.... You can control your Ebrake alot better than your left foot on the brake... Rally car drivers use it because they're trying to control a rediculous amount of HP.... So they try and slow down and go in sharply into turns at the same time.... Usually... Rally Car people use Heel toeing though.
Just a note: USE THE EBRAKE TO MAKE QUICK TURNS.
But meh. All these crazy tricks should be left on an empty parking lot.... None of this should be on the real road.. Because one time someone almost killed me by doing a stupid 180 ebrake in the middle of the highway (He tried to do a 360 turn to look kewl.. But meh, he just turned out looking like an idoit and someone that I'm scared to get into the car with)
Just a note: USE THE EBRAKE TO MAKE QUICK TURNS.
But meh. All these crazy tricks should be left on an empty parking lot.... None of this should be on the real road.. Because one time someone almost killed me by doing a stupid 180 ebrake in the middle of the highway (He tried to do a 360 turn to look kewl.. But meh, he just turned out looking like an idoit and someone that I'm scared to get into the car with)
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a the E-brake an effective and proper means of driving a car. Nor will it ever be faster. Left foot braking IS the only proper and intelligent manner of enhancing vehicle balance and maintaining engine rpm's to key your turbo spooled and to improve your exit speeds when following a proper racing line.
Heel toeing is the proper way of extending your transmission life by rpm matching each shift in the gearing as you go down through the sequence and also helps to keep the car balance and prevent lurching that can come from unmatched rpm's during shifting. This is a very good technique for all forms of racing and is used for rally, formula, and plenty of others.
Anybody using an e-brake for any kind of turning has not the foggiest idea what they are doing and will never be faster than someone who has learned the proper techniques for driving and cornering.
The only reason you can e-brake "better" than left foot braking is because most people do not take the time (Myself included) to properly train their left foot to have the necessary sensitivity and control to accurately control the brakes. It is a matter of practice and skill and nothing more.
NEVER use your E-brake for any kind of turning or racing. It's great for screwing around in the snow, playing in a parking lot, and putting flat spots on your tires and that is about it.
Later,
Steve
May 5, 2004, 05:40 PM
#40
Originally Posted by sdhotwn
I was going to flame and belittle you, but that's not cool.
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a the E-brake an effective and proper means of driving a car. Nor will it ever be faster. Left foot braking IS the only proper and intelligent manner of enhancing vehicle balance and maintaining engine rpm's to key your turbo spooled and to improve your exit speeds when following a proper racing line.
Heel toeing is the proper way of extending your transmission life by rpm matching each shift in the gearing as you go down through the sequence and also helps to keep the car balance and prevent lurching that can come from unmatched rpm's during shifting. This is a very good technique for all forms of racing and is used for rally, formula, and plenty of others.
Anybody using an e-brake for any kind of turning has not the foggiest idea what they are doing and will never be faster than someone who has learned the proper techniques for driving and cornering.
The only reason you can e-brake "better" than left foot braking is because most people do not take the time (Myself included) to properly train their left foot to have the necessary sensitivity and control to accurately control the brakes. It is a matter of practice and skill and nothing more.
NEVER use your E-brake for any kind of turning or racing. It's great for screwing around in the snow, playing in a parking lot, and putting flat spots on your tires and that is about it.
Later,
Steve
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES is a the E-brake an effective and proper means of driving a car. Nor will it ever be faster. Left foot braking IS the only proper and intelligent manner of enhancing vehicle balance and maintaining engine rpm's to key your turbo spooled and to improve your exit speeds when following a proper racing line.
Heel toeing is the proper way of extending your transmission life by rpm matching each shift in the gearing as you go down through the sequence and also helps to keep the car balance and prevent lurching that can come from unmatched rpm's during shifting. This is a very good technique for all forms of racing and is used for rally, formula, and plenty of others.
Anybody using an e-brake for any kind of turning has not the foggiest idea what they are doing and will never be faster than someone who has learned the proper techniques for driving and cornering.
The only reason you can e-brake "better" than left foot braking is because most people do not take the time (Myself included) to properly train their left foot to have the necessary sensitivity and control to accurately control the brakes. It is a matter of practice and skill and nothing more.
NEVER use your E-brake for any kind of turning or racing. It's great for screwing around in the snow, playing in a parking lot, and putting flat spots on your tires and that is about it.
Later,
Steve
....
Replies to my tip thing... but won't reply to how to put the bloody car that I drive on the left...
I guess I did word my reply wrong... But anyways...
All I can say is meh....
Sure Ebraking puts stress on the ebrake line... Sure Its not "professional"... But ****, it out does my friend's and their driving anyday...
When I said Ebraking, I meant for sharp turns... Left Foot braking would acheive the same thing (Transfer center of gravity to the front, thereby enhancing traction on the front wheels where your making your turn), but your also wearing (and potentially warping, I guess) your front brakes in the process... Which is not kewl.
Left foot braking is very useful I agree when your going around bends and what not.... But if your going to left foot brake, then you might as well as learn to heel toe and accelerate through the apex of the bends.
Left foot braking however is useless when your making 90 degree turns... Try it, you'll find your self stomping the brake, to the point where both of your wheels will lock up in the process... making your entire car skidding sideways rather than going to where you want to go.
If you ebrake however... Your back wheels are the only ones locking up, which will make your back end will fish tail a bit (which is expected). And if done right it'll set up your car in a perfect position to go where you want to go... The trick is with ebraking that I find is that you still have control with the front wheels to finish making the turn properly...
Note: You don't have to use the Ebrake the entire 90' of the turn, because if you do, you'll find your self at a complete stop or in a ditch. Maybe this is what your thinking what I'm saying...
.... btw, I can't see how Ebraking would put flat spots in your tyres... won't your tyres be in a different rotation the next time you ebrake? I dunno, this is something I'm interested in... Because if it'll skrew up my tyres that much then I'll stop ebraking lol.
---
Btw, flame me (But don't belittle me... Because that might turn into a very immature argument), but yea, I rather it because at the end of it all... No matter how pissed off at you I might be... I'll probably learn better.
Dem_z
May 6, 2004, 05:56 AM
#41
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Originally Posted by Dem_z
....
Replies to my tip thing... but won't reply to how to put the bloody car that I drive on the left...
I guess I did word my reply wrong... But anyways...
All I can say is meh....
Sure Ebraking puts stress on the ebrake line... Sure Its not "professional"... But ****, it out does my friend's and their driving anyday...
When I said Ebraking, I meant for sharp turns... Left Foot braking would acheive the same thing (Transfer center of gravity to the front, thereby enhancing traction on the front wheels where your making your turn), but your also wearing (and potentially warping, I guess) your front brakes in the process... Which is not kewl.
Left foot braking is very useful I agree when your going around bends and what not.... But if your going to left foot brake, then you might as well as learn to heel toe and accelerate through the apex of the bends.
Left foot braking however is useless when your making 90 degree turns... Try it, you'll find your self stomping the brake, to the point where both of your wheels will lock up in the process... making your entire car skidding sideways rather than going to where you want to go.
If you ebrake however... Your back wheels are the only ones locking up, which will make your back end will fish tail a bit (which is expected). And if done right it'll set up your car in a perfect position to go where you want to go... The trick is with ebraking that I find is that you still have control with the front wheels to finish making the turn properly...
Note: You don't have to use the Ebrake the entire 90' of the turn, because if you do, you'll find your self at a complete stop or in a ditch. Maybe this is what your thinking what I'm saying...
.... btw, I can't see how Ebraking would put flat spots in your tyres... won't your tyres be in a different rotation the next time you ebrake? I dunno, this is something I'm interested in... Because if it'll skrew up my tyres that much then I'll stop ebraking lol.
---
Btw, flame me (But don't belittle me... Because that might turn into a very immature argument), but yea, I rather it because at the end of it all... No matter how pissed off at you I might be... I'll probably learn better.
Dem_z
Replies to my tip thing... but won't reply to how to put the bloody car that I drive on the left...
I guess I did word my reply wrong... But anyways...
All I can say is meh....
Sure Ebraking puts stress on the ebrake line... Sure Its not "professional"... But ****, it out does my friend's and their driving anyday...
When I said Ebraking, I meant for sharp turns... Left Foot braking would acheive the same thing (Transfer center of gravity to the front, thereby enhancing traction on the front wheels where your making your turn), but your also wearing (and potentially warping, I guess) your front brakes in the process... Which is not kewl.
Left foot braking is very useful I agree when your going around bends and what not.... But if your going to left foot brake, then you might as well as learn to heel toe and accelerate through the apex of the bends.
Left foot braking however is useless when your making 90 degree turns... Try it, you'll find your self stomping the brake, to the point where both of your wheels will lock up in the process... making your entire car skidding sideways rather than going to where you want to go.
If you ebrake however... Your back wheels are the only ones locking up, which will make your back end will fish tail a bit (which is expected). And if done right it'll set up your car in a perfect position to go where you want to go... The trick is with ebraking that I find is that you still have control with the front wheels to finish making the turn properly...
Note: You don't have to use the Ebrake the entire 90' of the turn, because if you do, you'll find your self at a complete stop or in a ditch. Maybe this is what your thinking what I'm saying...
.... btw, I can't see how Ebraking would put flat spots in your tyres... won't your tyres be in a different rotation the next time you ebrake? I dunno, this is something I'm interested in... Because if it'll skrew up my tyres that much then I'll stop ebraking lol.
---
Btw, flame me (But don't belittle me... Because that might turn into a very immature argument), but yea, I rather it because at the end of it all... No matter how pissed off at you I might be... I'll probably learn better.
Dem_z
As far as the avatar on the left... does it show up in your options when you are looking at your own profile? Just check that you are showing a custom avatar in your personal setup on here.
Now as far as your responses....
Maybe your friends just can't drive
... but honestly... I can see what you are saying about the 90 degree turn and so forth. Yes it can be easier to get the car to rotate with the e-brake, I wouldn't argue otherwise. But a properly setup car can be biased by the operator to induce the rotation necessary. A properly setup car is neutrally balanced, meaning in a sharp turn or at the limit all 4 tires should slip around the same time (no not drifting, or power sliding, just adhesion limit all at the same time). Then a good driver or someone really familiar with their car can use the brakes just right to induce the tail to come around a little bit in the turn and that is the ideal way to take a lot of turns and is referred to a lot of times as trail-braking.. but it is a slight derivative of that technique. There is no such thing as a 90 degree turn in actuality
. When you are racing or auto-xing you will never take any turn as a 90 degree.. You end up modifying the line of everything to make it a little wider overall. Left foot braking is really for balancing the vehicle through a bit more of an extended turn or for keeping up rpm's when you have a turbo. It's a completely separate and independent thing of heel toe shifting. In actuality they are mututally exclusive. You can't do both at the same time! It also will not heat your rotors and pads any worse than than the stress they are undergoing during hard braking when cornering quickly. And rotors will only warp when your lugs are torqued improperly or you allow large amounts of water to be splashed on them, or you get them hot and then let the brakes be held onto the rotor (which results in imaging where an image of the brake pad is left on the rotor and can cause carbon depositing and uneven cooling that will give the rotor a "warped" feeling).
You can still take a 90 degree turn faster if you do not hand brake it... think about it from the standpoint that you only have so much traction available in total. Say 10 points per corner cruising down the road at whatever speed... when you lock a set of tires you exceed their adhesion limits and will essentially drop their traction value to say 2 points out of the 10 they had. Under proper cornering you would in theory have a traction distribution of say 15 points on the outer tires, and 3 points on the inner tires (notice that you do not have the full 40 points... you never have as much traction in cornering as you do laid out flat and completely corner balanced). Now if you are e-braking that same corner you would in theory have 15 and 3 up front, but only 1 and 1 in back... so obviously with less traction you have less ability to hold cornering g-forces and thus by the simple immutable laws of physics you will not be able to have as high of a cornering speed overall.
Then the next important thing is your entry and exit speed. Which is probably where you are feeling you are gaining. But again, apexed and balanced properly a non rear locked turn will be MUCH faster.
I did sort of think you meant to hold it longer... but again even if you are just doing it to induce the position the problem lies in that you have unbalanced the car and there is a certain amount of settling time inherent in a suspension before the vehicle will take a "set" which is the what you need for taking a solid and proper corner.
But basically any time you lock any tires for any reason before or during a turn you will pretty much be guaranteed to be slower than someone with very good car control and balance and a good racing line. And yes you can take a good racing line to some extent on EVERY corner even in daily driving. But when daily driving you have to alter your view of the "course" to only include your lane so the line you take may be other than the "ideal" line for the actual pavement, but you want to pursue the ideal line for the case where the pavement would be only what your lane actually is.
But you should want to always learn to properly late apex and roll on when driving.. when you learn to get it right the car feels amazing... first time I learned to properly trail brake and roll on through a late apex I couldn't believe how natural and amazing it felt!
Now as far as the flat spots... any time you lock a tire you put a flat spot on it. Doesn't matter how long or how short... that only alters how severe the flat spot is. For example I locked my tires this weekend at my race (getting used to new brake pads is bad when it's on the race course!!!!) and only slid the tires probably a good 10 feet at max with them locked and I have bad enough flat spots on my tires that I can feel and hear them when I drive around right now. So every time you lock your rear tires you are putting on a flat spot on them. Depending on how soft your tires are and how long you are locked will determine how bad the spots are.
Hope that helps and was a fair bit more civil!
Later.
Steve
May 6, 2004, 05:10 PM
#42
its all good, I'm glad we're not in some sort of information war... Because I know I'll probably loose heh... Its kewl that we got this settled though, I actually learned alot from it... Thanks.
I'm going to try and properly left foot brake from now on...
Thanks agian.
I'm going to try and properly left foot brake from now on...
Thanks agian.
Jun 18, 2004, 01:23 PM
#43
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steve, i agree with most of what you said with one exception: there are times that a controlled drift IS faster around a corner than a traditional racing line. watch the WRC guys drift around a long sweeper. 
there are circumstances even on tarmac where drifting creates higher exit speed.
there are circumstances even on tarmac where drifting creates higher exit speed.
Last edited by Tanner_Hall; Jun 18, 2004 at 01:25 PM.
Jun 18, 2004, 01:42 PM
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There is some debate between people on that. i don't know enough to say with absolute certainty. But the issue becomes that your tires can only produce a certain amount of grip. So lets work on an assumed 1/2 circle sweeper. Your centripetal (not centrifugal) acceleration around that sweeper is in a direct relation to your tangential speed. So for a given tangential speed you have a certain acceleration that has to be "held" against. Given the same tires on two cars the car that is not sliding past the 6-10degree slip angle that maximizes tire traction will be the one that is holding a better tangential speed. So in theory that car would be faster than the drift car.
But the application of power in a direction opposite of the centripetal acceleration by the drifting car is where things get a little more iffy. I THINK it is essentially (emphasis on think) negating some of the outward acceleration by generating a bit of power drive acceleration the other direction. So the actual tangential speed may be higher or equivalent to before while slipping far past the tires' ability.
Unfortunatley, without question in a longer term race this would be a bad thing (and for most of us as well) as the wear and temperatures on the tire will not be ideal. WRC is a little different as there is considerably minimal traction due to the surfaces and the tires perform extremely well in their standard motive direction (aka trying to move the car forward).
Maybe that clears or confuses the issue further.
I actually do mildly drift my FWD Mazda in some types of sweepers auto-xing because of being able to apply strong power with the LSD while having the alignment and suspension tuned so that the car stays neutral.
Lastly, often a drift line is much wider and longer than a good racing line because of the nature of the drift... this can be deterimental as well. Road racing relies very heavily on maximizing corner exit speed. I'm not sure how comparable a drift exit speed is on a given corner relative to a solidly driven modified racing line.
But the application of power in a direction opposite of the centripetal acceleration by the drifting car is where things get a little more iffy. I THINK it is essentially (emphasis on think) negating some of the outward acceleration by generating a bit of power drive acceleration the other direction. So the actual tangential speed may be higher or equivalent to before while slipping far past the tires' ability.
Unfortunatley, without question in a longer term race this would be a bad thing (and for most of us as well) as the wear and temperatures on the tire will not be ideal. WRC is a little different as there is considerably minimal traction due to the surfaces and the tires perform extremely well in their standard motive direction (aka trying to move the car forward).
Maybe that clears or confuses the issue further.
I actually do mildly drift my FWD Mazda in some types of sweepers auto-xing because of being able to apply strong power with the LSD while having the alignment and suspension tuned so that the car stays neutral.
Lastly, often a drift line is much wider and longer than a good racing line because of the nature of the drift... this can be deterimental as well. Road racing relies very heavily on maximizing corner exit speed. I'm not sure how comparable a drift exit speed is on a given corner relative to a solidly driven modified racing line.