BTW A good alignment should be everybody's first, and last "mod." For those that don't know, most cars, and very much so the AWD cars are HUGELY alignment sensitive. The difference of 0.2 degrees of camber is VERY noticeable. 0.5 degrees can totally alter the balance of the car.

I'm going to write-up an alignment thing and post it soon....

 

First off, thanks for all the info and wisdom chronohunter and siegelracing... and taking the time and patience to relay it.

Was just wondering what setup would be a good first step for someone learning the EVO on the track... definitely I understand driving it stock and evaluating the handling relative to ones driving style...

But would the first step then be a larger, adjustable rear bar, then a stepwise progression?

Or, knowing that the rear will be stiffer and decreasing front grip, making the necessary adjustments to the suspension all at once?

Thanks again.

g

 

The thought process for me was this....

1. nice flick
2. This is a great drift
3. wow, look at that sign
4. That sign is getting a lot closer.
5. wow, we almost clipped that sign
6. why is shiv laughing so hard?

 

first of all this is the best post on this forum EVER..... thanks to all that contributed.

back on topic - using bars (like Paul and Siegel have said) is an easy way to tune the chassis and still retain some street comfort, however sometimes a stiff bar wil actually try to "lift" (or limit droop) on the inside tire causing unwanted wheelspin. So for a track car I always recommend springs first. It is important to have a little bit of droop built into the suspension to maximize traction while transfering weight (braking/turning)

Jason

 

Well, just out of curiosity (I really am a novice) and I'll be neutral although I have done a lot of business with RRE, but:

Say your going into the turn and you choose to trail brake, as Paul pointed out the purpose is simple, to increase the front grip through the weight transfer and keep the rear tires gripping also. So you can carry more speed with more traction through the first half of the turn. But you have to accelerate out of the turn (and presuming your in the right gear) your going to have a small amount of lag (or with a aftermarket turbo more lag) and carry less speed out of the corner. Correct?

And Scott, email me the location of the school and possible hotels, and how much it costs, I may make the drive from PA. jdg228@psu.edu

 

So what spring set-up would you recommend? Would you change to coil-overs?

 

I come out of the dirt oval wars and my driving "style" reflects this loose is fast if you know how to use it ;-) and "backing the car in contributes a great deal of braking force without heating up the brakes...and the one thing you continue to ignore OVERHEATING THE OUTSIDE FRONT TIRE...I live by the traction circle too...I use incar data aquisition (Drak) from my go-cart days. A tite ANY tire only has so much traction as you overload it (with the heavy nose and your trail braking) you over heat it it's traction circle then goes to Sh*t and from then on for the rest of us it's like shooting fish in a barrel. The latest issue of racecar engineering has a great article on this and deals more with alternitive lines than "trail braking" per-se. Remember just because I seem to avoid trailbraking and focus my braking efforts more in a straight line doesn't mean I stay on the "classic line" for a minute. BTW ONE wet rainy bicycle criterium with a total traction surface of less than 1 square inch speeds over 30 mph and a low HP high torque "motor" will teach you more about cornering dynamics than any and all the "racing schools" out there. Since most of you can't get this these guys have the only viable option...The other thing...My tire temps are very consistant front to rear that means I'm using all 4 corners of my car to their respective maximums...all with out trail braking. Paul I think you did great in both your endevors (post OTC where you guys were getting an old school beating by Coffee's 1970 allmotor 240Z is the car older than shiv?) with the vishnu car. (funny I had to gig you to get any props...;-). ..) Oh RRE's skidpad setups are the same as the race setups and none of the magazine guys complain about the cars handling..should we start warning them? I'm not as closeminded as you think...20 track days and 38Kmiles in less than a year only means I've tried everyway to get this car faster and the car was never truly balanced off a corner till I quit the trail brake bandwagon.

 

Yes, I would do a coilover. You are limited (spring selection and spring travel) with a factory type spring. I would recommend the Ohlins, the design of the damper section (piston design, bleed circuit, shim stack) is FAR superior to the other available shocks for this car. Using data gathered from some very knowledgable customers (thanks Chronohunter ) we have come up with a few very solid setups for this car regardless of your intended use. We are also working on a very trick autocross/Solo2 setup with specific valving and springs.

All of the fast guys are running a similar stagger of spring rates - typically a bit higher in the rear than the front - actual rates should be determined by intended use for the car and what the shock damping can actually control.

 

A agree about this being the most useful thread I've experienced on this site. I too am concerned about making sure that my car is set up for a novice to be able to learn correctly and safely. I am doing my first track day september 22 at Thunderhill, with two more at the same track in November. I have the stock suspension and a WORKS rear bar, and the camber settings adjusted .2 ...the rear end feels noticebly looser on sweepers, such as on-ramps, etc, and I don't feel as much "confidence" in the car. I also have the swybar set at the middle setting for stiffness. I'm wondering if I should have just sucked it up and bought coilovers first, or better yet, just done the track days, learned more about the car's behavior on the track, and then started making adjustments.

 

Typically "sway-bars" have a greater effect on turn in feel than actual steady state cornering, if the car feels nervous to you I would suggest moving the adjustment to its longest (softest) setting and trying that. Just save your real experimenting for the track - we dont need any more wrecked Evos's. Thunderhill has great runoff area (I know, Ive spun there a few times )

 

This post Rocks, Best post EVA on evom by far. Now for a stock car with stock springs and stock bars how would you have the top / camber / caster setup?

 

What model Ohlins and how much $$$ are we talking about?

 

bump

 

No for a couple of reasons (assuming the turbo is not too big for road racing).

1.The thing about our later acceleration is that it starts from a higher speed (the benifit of the extra grip that came from trailbraking) so the exit speed its higher.

2. Turbo lag does make the exit trickier but not for the reasons most people think. The soft initial hit is a good thing because you want to start your drive gently and as early as possible the problem is when the boost hits if you are really flying you have to bleed of some throttle (boost) to keep the car hooked up. The thing I like to tell people is if you can go full throttle anywhere in the corner and she didn't bust loose you were going to slow!

On really laggy cars (with "drag" turbos) you either wait for the boost or left foot brake (and hang on )

 

Ohlins MIS Evo street kit plus springs (seasoned to taste ) usually about $2350 give or take. I have been working with ohlins to re-spec the OEM springs that come with the kit to better suit most peoples driving style here in the US - those should be ready in about a months time and will be just under $2100. For the super-track monkeys we can revalve them to suit a much stiffer spring for an additional $280 - that includes consultation and dyno sheets before and after.

good Ohlins article by KK on the frontpage....clicky clicky here