5 out of 8 cars have the Dynoflash.......on 9/11

 

Yea well I have been there 3 times, paid over 1,000 and was happy with 1. Ive emailed Al about but no response. Which is why along with many others as well as my brother are and have gone to Turbo Trix. Someone who treats you well and doesnt make excuses like its my fault I didnt gain power. I could have spent that extra 1K on mods that would have done wonders for my car. And when it doesnt live up to my expectations like my 3rd tune, i dont get a response. DynoFlash does god for a stock EVO, then your on your own.....

 

Like many things in life, each method has its own advantages and disadvantges. I think among great tuners there is some serious diference of opinion on which method is better and for what reason.

The issue with dyno tuning is the accuracy of the load on the car to replicate the load on the street. Also the air flow variation has a significant effect on the collant temps and fmic cooling.

Few people realize that the Evo 8 has some serious collant temp enrichments which really start to richen the mixture when the collant temps begine to rise. Tuners who are not aware of this and who do not allow sufficent time for the car to cool down between testing pulls will tune the car during the very enriched high collant temp condition. Thereafter, when the customer hits the street with sufficient air flow and normal collant temps the car is way too lean. This is just one of the dangers of tuning without proper understanding and control of the conditions in the dyno room.


Very few shops take the air flow over the car very seriously when dyno tuning. I wish i could afford a fan like this one that Steve Dinan uses to dyno tune BMWs



Over time and through working with these cars I have found ways to get the Pruven Dyno Jet dyno to very closely replicate the real world street conditions. The methods we use include waiting a set time between runs, making sure the collant temps are in a uniform range and using a proper boost level on the dyno. I feel that after a year working on the same dyno a few times a week - sometimes all day long - we have a very good handle on how to properly tune the cars on the dyno to make a close approximation of real world conditions.

Dynos are also very good for making base maps and working out tuning issues on a new car or new mod combo. You can quickly see what is working and what is not working. When we first started tuning evos, I did most of the tuning on dynos to work out the ignition timing mapping and a/f targets.

A dyno is also good to quickly test a new part to see if it makes more power and how much.

With that said - it is imprortant to note that a dyno pull is NEVER exactly the same as being on the road.

From what I read the Ferrari F1 team tunes its engines by engine dynoing them inside a wind tunnel.

The best way to tune the car is in the same conditions that the car is driven - on the road. Personally - on my own race car - I rarely used the dyno except to test the power level. 99% of my tuning is done on the race track. I data log the runs and make adjustments after every pull. There is no way any dyno can top a real life race track for accurate tuning.

In my car and in most cars - I am tuning for pre-determined a/f and ign timing targets and mostly looking for knock activity and finding good margins of saftey. I already know how much power the cars should be making and can feel if they are smooth and making enough power by driving them. The "feel" combined with the data from the wideband and data logs tells me all I need to know.

The road tune gives me a chance to have the most accurate loading on the car and the proper air flow. Also - I can "feel" how the tuning is working and "hear" the sound as its on the street in real time.

On the dyno you really have a hard time to feel anything - its mostly a visual display.

When I am in my local area, I prefer to use the Pruven dyno becuase I am 100% familiar with its operation and how to get good results using it. Also in this area there is some serious traffic congestion and may times road tuning is not practical.

On my first few road trips for tuning in other areas, I tried using other dynos at other shops and after time I wound up tuning the cars on the road and then putting then onto the dyno to get the results. Simply put - I did not have the same familiarity with the other shop's dyno and did not feel like I could get a similar result.

Another factor is cost and the length of time that I schdeule for tuning appointments. I usally set my tunes for between 1.5 hours to 2 hours each. Im most cases that much dyno time is going to add significantly to the cost of the tuning. In some cases I have been quoted up to $250 per hour with an average of $125 per hour.

Still another factor is the health effects of exposure to fumes and smoke in shops without proper ventilation equipment which can really make the customers and myself rather ill.

Of course the road tuning carries its own risks from accidents and the police (particularly in LA !) which can be minimized through prudent selcection of location and attention to driving. Knock on wood with over 200 cars tuned on the road in the last year on my tuning trips I have not had one problem with tickets or accidents to date.

Some reflash tuners charge $500 for a through the mail flash. For the same $500 I will fly out to your town, pay for my air fare and hotel, hook up my gear and give you a custom tuned reflash - all for the same $500. Obviously if we are going to factor in additional costs for dyno time the price is going to rise.

In conlusion - to answer your question, both methods can produce good results if you have experience working with them. I am able to do tuning with the dyno and on the road and I think the end result is virually identical.

PS - for those who are interested in this subject - here is a great article that i have found very informative on the subject of dyno tuning

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

 

The air/fuel graph i have for this particular person doesnt have a 12.6 blip in it. AFR at 7k are 11.8. The reason i had the last two threads closed is because i wanted this bickering to stop. I did 2 pulls on this persons car .. he came in with 291 whp and left with 306 after 2 pulls ( Which translates to 312 on pruvens dyno ).. I didnt spend 1.5hrs on the car. People that came that day were to be helped with a problem not try and play out al. This particular person had put cams in and most def was not a good candidate for what i was doing. He made 14whp over what he baselined at. Could i bring him back down and beat al's number and spend 3hrs on his car .. probably. This is turning into an evo8power thing .. which i dont want to happen. There is no question al and myself can flash a car. I've spoken with al about the situation and we are putting it behind us. There will be no more bashing of vendors on this site or any other. Al has a family as do i and there is no reason to harm each others business. There will always be followers and believers in dynoflash and in turbotrix. There is plenty of evo business to go around and to spend the entire day on the internet trying to defend your business is crazy.

Mark
Turbotrix

 

I'm surprised Mark. Judging by your other posts in threads like this I really didn't expect such a response from you. I'm also impressed. It's about time someone decided to be the bigger man and try to put an end to all the bashing that goes on round here .

 

seriously its like US vs Soviet Union arms race during the Cold War hehe

 

So by adding cam's and a new tune he went from 290ish to 335 HP ? Wow !

 

And like the cold war, it will be a better world to have this one over too

Major props to both tuners.

 

I agree with Mark 100% and we have spoken and there will be no bashing of Turbo Tricks by myself. I respect the work of Mark and Turbo Tricks greatly and admire thier progress and accomplishments.

I feel that vendor attcks not only make life misrable for the vendors in question while providing soap opera like entertainment for the trolls who love to revel in negativity but they also waste valuable time and band width which should be better spent on more positive aspects of these fine cars and the lifestyle of car tuning in general.

At the same time, I feel it is appropriate to further discuss and explain what I am doing as a tuner with my reflash. I do this for two reasons.: 1 - to make sure that potential customers who consider my product are comfortable with the way I tune and 2. To respond in some more inteligent manner to the several internet trols of late who have been loudly advancing the messages that "Dyno Flash sucks" - or "Friends don't let friends buy Dyno Flash"

I mean to discuss my product and the manner in which I tune in a respectful way without discrediting what other tuners are doing and without insulting any of my fellow professionals who all do a fantastic job day in and day out - especially Turbo Tricks.

I mean no discredit to any other tuners. I simply seek to show evo m members how I tune the cars.

In the future, I plan to post many examples like this one so that readers here can discover additional information on how and why we do what we do.

Thanks

 

Wow... I can feel the love wash over me. If I wasn't sitting at my desk at work and reading this I'd swear someone slipped me a rolex.

 

Let me first say this is in NO way a post about who is better TT or Dynoflash. This is a post about MY direct experience with both of these products.

My mods are: Helix Turboback, K&N cone filter on stock mas pipe, HKS 264/272 cams, 255 pump, Hallman MBC, Greddy TypeS BOV. Everything else is bone stock.

When I went to TT on saturday, i was glad to get some more power out of the car when I left and was happy with the tune. I left there making 324 whp at 22 psi. It was later on that night I got concerned when my car started to not feel like it was pulling smoothly throughout the powerband and then in 5th gear at WOT, bang, fuel cut. WTF?? I thought. Maybe it leaned out from too much boost. I turned it down from the 22 psi TT had it at to 21. Fuel cut again. Kept turning it down till i was at 20 and it stopped. Until the car cooled off and I was driving home and it happend 2 more times on the highway in 5th. Needless to say I was pissed cause this had never happend to my car before. I didnt want to go all the way back to TT and contacted Al about just getting a mail in tune and be done with it and know my car was safe with the sacrifice of power.

I will say Mark admitted to forgetting to remove the fuel cut, and also to raise the rev limiter and offered to fix it for free. An honest mistake and not a huge problem, just more of an inconvienience to me to have to drive all the way back there. I was up in the air about it, but Al offered me a free retune so I decided to give Al and Pruven another shot just cause I never had an issue like this with their tunes before.

Before my car touched the dyno me and Al went out on the road and did a few 3rd gear pulls logging timing. It wasnt bad, but it was getting pulled slightly in some spots. Remember this is also at only 20 psi, TT tuned it for 22 psi and I lowerd it cause of the fuel cut.

When I baselined at Pruven I made 312, and then 314 whp. My AFR was running 12.0 at redline, and leaner up until then. It was at 12.6 before 5500 RPMs. Not good, for pump gas at least and winter on its way. Al then started working on the ECU. He spent a good amount of time making it run very smooth. They put the boost back at 22, and the car made a max of 338 whp. He then detuned it slightly for an added margin of saftey and I left with 334 whp with an AFR of 11.0. More power and safer AFR level IMO.

Before anyone says anything, I sat in the car while it was dynoed, and I was standing next to them while they brought the run up on the screen. Al's customer service was improved 110% from the infamous Dyno day, I was impressed to say the least. I was involved in the tuning, he let me know what was happening each step of the way. This is how a dyno tune SHOULD be. I want to say thanks again to Al and Pruven for helping me out.

I also want to thank Mark and TurboTrix for providing the free day to try out their product, it didnt work out for me but others seem to have great success.

The bottom line is, both tuners get good results out these cars, its up to YOU, the customer which tuning method you prefer. I am more used to Al's tuning style from back when I used to have a DSM. The car used to trap 117 mph all day on a bone stock bottom end. Could I have gone faster with that car? Probably, but it was my everyday car and I kept it on the rich side to keep the motor together. I never once blew a DSM engine in over 2 years of racing. Al tunes very similair to how I did to preserve my parts, which is why I prefer the Dynoflash method of tuning.

 

Great post !!!

 

really? what brand is that dyno? i thought it was a dynojet


Ed-

 

Al, why do you refer to Turbo Trix as Turbo Tricks? Is that an innocent mistake?

 

Mark,
You may be thinking of someone else, I baselined at 314 and left with 324whp.