AL your dedication and enthusiasm for the EVO is inspiring. You just wont give up, No matter what. You have the fastest 4g63 guys in the world in your corner. There is no doubt you will not only meet your goals. You will destroy them by large margins.The evolution tuning community needs more venders like Dynoflash Pruvin Buschur..ect


Good luck Brother

 

I 100% agree that with a crank pulley change you are asking for trouble. Having timing and knock problems is probably also the most mild problem you may have. The worst problem that could occur is an overstressed crank which proceeds to break (taking almost everything else, including you, with it).

Folks, these aftermarket pullyes are not tested well. They are not put on an engine test (outside of a car) for months as a factory engine design would be.

These designers are also working with many different cars, that have many different engines. They do not know specifics of a particular engine. They will insist there is nothing wrong with their design, but will not back their product if something goes wrong with your car.

There are many ways to get horsepower in a much safer manner.
Stay away from crank pullies.

 

Al,
I left you a voice mail on you're answer machine.

Feb 7 ,2004 in Houston you did the Dynoflash on my car.

I have the pullies on my car. Both of us seen the Dyno #'s done at Turbocharges.com.


I would like to thx Al for bring this to our attention. I really thought something was wrong with my car after seeing a my Dyno #'s in Houston.

After talking with Al, were going to C.. what happens he is testing a Evo now.


thank you again.

Michael

 

Its good when your theories are "pruven" in practice

#1 - the lightweight crank pulley yielded - zero whp or trq gains - we could not see ANY gains on the dyno - we did the runs back to back with the brand X reflash that the customer had installed last weekend and the pulls were identical with and without that pulley

#2 - After careful tuning - WITH the crank pulley and 13 retune dyno pulls the most whp we made was 301 whp - this was back in oct and at the time we erroneously suspected bad gas (we were wrong)

Mods - Vishnu 3" exhuast with high flow cat, 272 hks cams, fuel pressure reg upgrade, Buschur intake, walboro pump and Dyno Flash

After much more careful tuning with the removal of the lightweight crank pulley and the stock one back on. . .

324 whp 327 ft lbs of trq ! Which is what we would normally expect with the dyno flash and those level of mods

In conclusion - the crank pulley was 100% to blame to triggering more engine noise and causing the ecu to pull timing

 

Nice job Al!

I already removed mine today in anticipation these results.

 

Counter Point:

No disrespect intended, but this test data just doesn't add up for me. There have been several tests done with the stock ECU where the under drive pulley showed a significant power increase accross the board. Some of these tests I have done personally. If your conclusions are correct, how could this be?

There are also countless individuals and well respected tuners that have used these pullies on the 4g63 for years and tens of thousands of miles without a single incident. The people speaking out against these pullies seem to simply ignore these facts, it's kind of hard to ignore IMO. I personally have over 10,000 miles and 6 months with one of these pullies on my EVO, still waiting for the world to end .

Bearing wear, failed cranks, that's happens on plenty of these engines that weren't running under drive pulley's, so what exactly does that prove? I still have not seen a single controlled test that verifies anything.

Let's see, we have these cars that are already running on the edge of knock straight from the factory, so what do we do? Crank the boost up, lean out the fuel mixture, and advance the timing! Oh, but don't put an under drive pulley in "that will ruin your motor" I mean come on! We have already seen a few people ruin there motors doing this kind of stuff, and guess what? They weren't running under drive pulleys.

Worried about long term reliability? Don't modifiy your car, 30-100+ percent increase in power sure as hell ain't gonna help.

I am not selling this stuff, I just hate to see a perfectly good power adding mod get trashed based on what I consider highly questionable test data. Nomex under wear on.

BTW (this has already been posted) here is tx evo's back to back dyno testing without/with the under drive pulley, Works reflash, 3"exhaust with hi-flow cat and a MBC. Nice power increase and no sign of additional timming retard, go figure:

 

The dyno sheet you posted has no relivance as it has several mods addded at one time

All I can tell you is his trq gains were low for so many mods - I make about 310 whp and 310 - 315 ft lbs with cars with same mods and no crank pulley

I am not in business to sell pulleys - - I do not have any profit motive to state this opinion - I am only asserting this so that my customers can all get the best results that I can get them

As far as proving or disproving my theory

Please keep in mind that we just did a A - B test with just the pulley removal and there was no gain or loss from the pulley or not the pulley

I believe if its the same guy you are talking about above - I personally drove his car with knock sensor attached and datalogging his knock counts and timing and saw 1st hand the same harmonic activity at 6,000 plus that the other 5 probem cars had

Unless you have "listened" to the sounds from the engine with the proper quipment then you would have no way to tell if the engine noise has increased from the pulley or not

Bottom line - I THINK - you don't want something on your car which adds zero whp and which increses harmonic noise and which triggers the ecu to retard timig

I have no recomendation on long term engine wear or damage on the pulleys as I am not a mechanical engineeer

I JUST speak on stock ecu reflashing which is what I do and you do NOT want a crank pulley on a car with the factory ecu and knock sesnor

I am willing to wager that the guy Mike from Texas will pick up 20 whp and ft lbs after he removes th crank pulley and I retune his car

As far as blown up engines - I heard of quite a few lately and have seen quiet a few - so far not one of the 364 guys with my tune have reported ANY problems what so ever with any thig at all - no cels no issues - NO problems. Things will stay this way becuase I am on top of R & D andworkig to make my product better day by day - this information you are readig right now is a perfect example of our continuing efforts to provide the best product we can

 

u wanna believe them Buschur, Dynoflash, Pruven, thats the best thing u can do for urself, if u dont good for u, but i listened to em and gained horsepower and torque without that darn chunk of machined aluminum. It looks nice all polished up on top of my toolbox though

 

That's not true, the only difference between the two runs shown here is the pulley.

I don't sell this stuff either, and I have no reason to believe that anyone is intentionally or maliciously misleading anyone. There just seems to be some conflicting test data here with no reasonable explination.

How can these pulley's significantly increase knock count and still show substantial power increases in other independant tests using the stock ECU? It just doesn't make sense.

Sorry but I don't blindly follow anyones advice, especially when there is conflicting information. I think more testing needs to be done.

If there is increased knock count from the pulley, I don't see any reason why a standalone ECU would not record it as well? IMO this is the biggest short comming with the stock ECU, there is just no adequate data logging to see whats really going on.

This "advisory" does give a little food for thought, but it is certainly not enough for me to remove my pulley.

Al, if you make it to the D/FW area I would be happy to do some testing with you. I will also invite you out to my local road course/club, data logging on a road course, now that is truely extreme test conditions.

Kind regards,

Eric

 

I have enough information based upon 6 cars all with the same problem with the engine harmonics

If people want to install these pulleys - its their choice - I will still tune their cars - BUT - dont be diasppointed when your power level is not what you expected !

Finally - we have vast aray of datalogging ability with the stock ecu and I am 100% confident in my opinion

 

I know Silver Surfer would not argue without his points and I also know Al wouldn't say this for the hell of it either. David Buschur has the strongest opinion on these pulleys and I believe he has strong data or known failures without harmonic dampening. Problem is he has never explained it.

There is one point to this to think about. If you had say a built Chevy 350 that was in a drag car. Would you remove the Dampner and replace it with an aluminum pulley or would you put a good Dampner on? All the SFI approved dampners are just that, dampners. You don't see any straight pulleys on the highend for a V8.
A four cylinder only fires every 180 degrees so they are not the smoothest as far as power stroke to crankshaft oscillation. An V8 is every 90 degrees and this smoother. V6 engines suck for smoothness as they are every 120 degrees, that's why they idle like dog ****.
I guess my point is there is something to be said for the load impacted upon the crank with 20 psi of boost hitting every 180 degrees. I would venture to guess that the harmonics are harsher on a 4 cylinder then an 8.

On a dyno sheet note. I notice the second pull with the pulley has a dip in it. The dip looks very familiar because I had the same one before and I had the pulley on the car. I know Al has a flash fix to smooth out the pulley. I guess the real question is, Al do you generally only see this dip when tuning cars with pulleys?
Since it is obvious it was pulling timing at that point or it is being pulled in the tune to prevent the ECU from pulling it.

 

would be very curous if the gentelman with the pulley could log his ignition timing with an odbII scan tool and show us the results

I am less interested in what the dyno shows when you pop off the pulley and put on the lightweight one . . . . . I am more interested in seeing what your ign timing retards to after a few hours of hard driving

A good tune and well running evo will hold the tune and maintain ign timing without any pulling of timing from knock

I used to have such a pulley on my WRX - but that engine is a differnt animal. I am open minded and test just about everything out. I learned already its a waste of timing to 2nd guess Dave Buschur on 4g63's

When Buschur and Dan at pruven say the same thing - its almost irrational to refute what they are saying

Plenty of people run venting to air bov's on their evos for the sound and have idel problems and a giant puff of black smoke when they shift - they don't install them b/c they run well - they do it for the sound and b/c it seemed like a good idea

I think people reading what I recomend should just take it with a grain of salt - its just free advice

I have had some diffculties with my new scanner today - when i get the dyno sheets posted all of this will make more sense

just keep in mind that on the stock ecu tuning - you can only make power up to a certain noise point and then the ecu will pull timing - period (unless you alter the knock signal which is a totally ned subject !) - - the way to make power is to keep the engine as quiet as you can - good for power and safety

 

PS - I am not a mechanical engineer - I can not opine on the issue of IF the noise I am hearing and seeing on my meter is from the engine and just not dampened by the rubber pulley - OR - if it is added noise from the belt driven accesories or BOTH ???

I am sure if one of you asks Dave Buchur about this on the general tech forum he will answer this question - I can not post up over there

 

Uh, you didn't answer my question.

The dip in the chart which I know you've see is related to knock at that RPM. My question is how common is it in your tuning as I am curious if it only appeared on the pulley cars. Notice it is not there stock but appears on the pulley run.

 

Its hard to tell on a dyno ther than the one I am used to. I don't like to speculate. The way I would tell is to listen, watch the knock meter, knock counts, and do a few pulls and see if the dip is contant - also of course logging the ign timing and watching the ecu pull the timing