Scaling for PTE 780 Injectors
Dec 23, 2006, 11:32 AM
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Scaling for PTE 780 Injectors
I searched and read I think just about every thread and every post on injector scaling, looking for a starting point on scaling these injectors.
A little history.... ike many, I had a custom flash for these injectors when I put them in 8 months ago, and the well respected tuner (has a big presence here on Evom) did not touch the injector size or latency values. He did make the comment that "yes, their larger than stock, but they're not 780's". I took it with a grain of salt because the car was running excellent.
In the search for more power, enter a set bigger camshafts.
The idle goes to crap.
Can't seem to do much about it with the Utec and adjusting the BISS screw. That's when I get the tactrix cable, and EcuFlash to try and work out the idle issues.
After reading numerous threads, seems the real efforts on scaling were going on back in late summer/early fall. But the concensus seemed to be start with a scaling factor between 600-660, and some were going even up to 700. Well I tried those settings, and my car was waaaay lean up top. To the tune of 12.5's-12.9's when the fuel map was calling for 10.9's. And I was having to add excess latency to try and get the trims right at idle/part throttle. After numerous hours of frustration, and remembering what the tuner said when I got the custom tune, I overnighted another set of PTE 780cc injectors thinking maybe when I puchased the first set (from a very reputable shop here on Evom), they somehow sent me 680's instead. But when I got the new injectors, I pulled the old ones, and sure enough, they're 780's. Here's what I bought.
So I plug em in, same story, I just could not get the injectors to work with that large of a scaling factor. So, I start lowering it.... from 660, to 630, to 600, 575, 542, and eventually 532. The results were anything but linear. From 660 to 575, not much happened in the way of A/F's or trim characteristics. But the jump to 542 made a good size difference, and the smaller jump to 532 had an even bigger difference. And that's where I'm at now. Scaled at 532 with latencies back to the recommended values in the Injector Scaling thread.
Now, my A/F's are a bit leaner than the fuel table below 4000 rpms, and a bit richer than the fuel table above 5000 rpm's, a happy median.
So on my car, PTE 780's, scaled to 532, with the recommended latencies for these injectors have the LTFT's within 5%, and my fuel map values are close to realtime A/F's. Just looking for some feedback to know if my car is out in left field picking daisies, or are these typical values others are using for these popular injectors? TTP posted about a car he did with 680's, and he eventually left the scaling at the stock 513.
A little history.... ike many, I had a custom flash for these injectors when I put them in 8 months ago, and the well respected tuner (has a big presence here on Evom) did not touch the injector size or latency values. He did make the comment that "yes, their larger than stock, but they're not 780's". I took it with a grain of salt because the car was running excellent.
In the search for more power, enter a set bigger camshafts.
The idle goes to crap.
Can't seem to do much about it with the Utec and adjusting the BISS screw. That's when I get the tactrix cable, and EcuFlash to try and work out the idle issues.After reading numerous threads, seems the real efforts on scaling were going on back in late summer/early fall. But the concensus seemed to be start with a scaling factor between 600-660, and some were going even up to 700. Well I tried those settings, and my car was waaaay lean up top. To the tune of 12.5's-12.9's when the fuel map was calling for 10.9's. And I was having to add excess latency to try and get the trims right at idle/part throttle. After numerous hours of frustration, and remembering what the tuner said when I got the custom tune, I overnighted another set of PTE 780cc injectors thinking maybe when I puchased the first set (from a very reputable shop here on Evom), they somehow sent me 680's instead. But when I got the new injectors, I pulled the old ones, and sure enough, they're 780's. Here's what I bought.
So I plug em in, same story, I just could not get the injectors to work with that large of a scaling factor. So, I start lowering it.... from 660, to 630, to 600, 575, 542, and eventually 532. The results were anything but linear. From 660 to 575, not much happened in the way of A/F's or trim characteristics. But the jump to 542 made a good size difference, and the smaller jump to 532 had an even bigger difference. And that's where I'm at now. Scaled at 532 with latencies back to the recommended values in the Injector Scaling thread.
Now, my A/F's are a bit leaner than the fuel table below 4000 rpms, and a bit richer than the fuel table above 5000 rpm's, a happy median.
So on my car, PTE 780's, scaled to 532, with the recommended latencies for these injectors have the LTFT's within 5%, and my fuel map values are close to realtime A/F's. Just looking for some feedback to know if my car is out in left field picking daisies, or are these typical values others are using for these popular injectors? TTP posted about a car he did with 680's, and he eventually left the scaling at the stock 513.
Dec 23, 2006, 12:04 PM
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I searched and read I think just about every thread and every post on injector scaling, looking for a starting point on scaling these injectors.
A little history.... ike many, I had a custom flash for these injectors when I put them in 8 months ago, and the well respected tuner (has a big presence here on Evom) did not touch the injector size or latency values. He did make the comment that "yes, their larger than stock, but they're not 780's". I took it with a grain of salt because the car was running excellent.
In the search for more power, enter a set bigger camshafts.
The idle goes to crap. Can't seem to do much about it with the Utec and adjusting the BISS screw. That's when I get the tactrix cable, and EcuFlash to try and work out the idle issues.
After reading numerous threads, seems the real efforts on scaling were going on back in late summer/early fall. But the concensus seemed to be start with a scaling factor between 600-660, and some were going even up to 700. Well I tried those settings, and my car was waaaay lean up top. To the tune of 12.5's-12.9's when the fuel map was calling for 10.9's. And I was having to add excess latency to try and get the trims right at idle/part throttle. After numerous hours of frustration, and remembering what the tuner said when I got the custom tune, I overnighted another set of PTE 780cc injectors thinking maybe when I puchased the first set (from a very reputable shop here on Evom), they somehow sent me 680's instead. But when I got the new injectors, I pulled the old ones, and sure enough, they're 780's. Here's what I bought.
So I plug em in, same story, I just could not get the injectors to work with that large of a scaling factor. So, I start lowering it.... from 660, to 630, to 600, 575, 542, and eventually 532. The results were anything but linear. From 660 to 575, not much happened in the way of A/F's or trim characteristics. But the jump to 542 made a good size difference, and the smaller jump to 532 had an even bigger difference. And that's where I'm at now. Scaled at 532 with latencies back to the recommended values in the Injector Scaling thread.
Now, my A/F's are a bit leaner than the fuel table below 4000 rpms, and a bit richer than the fuel table above 5000 rpm's, a happy median.
So on my car, PTE 780's, scaled to 532, with the recommended latencies for these injectors have the LTFT's within 5%, and my fuel map values are close to realtime A/F's. Just looking for some feedback to know if my car is out in left field picking daisies, or are these typical values others are using for these popular injectors? TTP posted about a car he did with 680's, and he eventually left the scaling at the stock 513.
A little history.... ike many, I had a custom flash for these injectors when I put them in 8 months ago, and the well respected tuner (has a big presence here on Evom) did not touch the injector size or latency values. He did make the comment that "yes, their larger than stock, but they're not 780's". I took it with a grain of salt because the car was running excellent.
In the search for more power, enter a set bigger camshafts.
The idle goes to crap.
Can't seem to do much about it with the Utec and adjusting the BISS screw. That's when I get the tactrix cable, and EcuFlash to try and work out the idle issues.After reading numerous threads, seems the real efforts on scaling were going on back in late summer/early fall. But the concensus seemed to be start with a scaling factor between 600-660, and some were going even up to 700. Well I tried those settings, and my car was waaaay lean up top. To the tune of 12.5's-12.9's when the fuel map was calling for 10.9's. And I was having to add excess latency to try and get the trims right at idle/part throttle. After numerous hours of frustration, and remembering what the tuner said when I got the custom tune, I overnighted another set of PTE 780cc injectors thinking maybe when I puchased the first set (from a very reputable shop here on Evom), they somehow sent me 680's instead. But when I got the new injectors, I pulled the old ones, and sure enough, they're 780's. Here's what I bought.
So I plug em in, same story, I just could not get the injectors to work with that large of a scaling factor. So, I start lowering it.... from 660, to 630, to 600, 575, 542, and eventually 532. The results were anything but linear. From 660 to 575, not much happened in the way of A/F's or trim characteristics. But the jump to 542 made a good size difference, and the smaller jump to 532 had an even bigger difference. And that's where I'm at now. Scaled at 532 with latencies back to the recommended values in the Injector Scaling thread.
Now, my A/F's are a bit leaner than the fuel table below 4000 rpms, and a bit richer than the fuel table above 5000 rpm's, a happy median.
So on my car, PTE 780's, scaled to 532, with the recommended latencies for these injectors have the LTFT's within 5%, and my fuel map values are close to realtime A/F's. Just looking for some feedback to know if my car is out in left field picking daisies, or are these typical values others are using for these popular injectors? TTP posted about a car he did with 680's, and he eventually left the scaling at the stock 513.
My experience with the PTE 780s is the opposite of yours. My car would go pig rich with the latencies setup per the AEM wizard figures on anything less than a scale of 700. I started with 730 and my fuel trims were negative by nearly 10%. I'm now at a scaling of 780 with a latency somewhere about .912 (I think off the top of my head) @ 14V and fuel trims are hovering near zero and the car runs a bit leaner than what the fuel maps are calling for by about a point or so on a 4th gear pull.
Dec 23, 2006, 01:02 PM
#3
I have the PTE 780's. I am set at 636 and .696 at 14v. My trims are -8 on both LTFT and +-5 on STFT. I am running a little lean. I have not logged a full 3rd gear puill yet. I think I can get my trims better. I want them within +-5, and the car to idle with the A/C on. I am stiil testing a few things out.
Dec 23, 2006, 01:16 PM
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Here are some links that I book-marked from my previous searches.
Perhaps they might be helpful.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...5&postcount=51
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&postcount=69
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=207924&page=5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For proper injector scaling ... at a reasonable price ... I think I'm going
to eventually contact Jester tuning. He's not only a tuner ... He's a programmer
that understands how the software works as well as the interaction.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=jester+tuning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is general knowledge that one of the more prominent tooners
on this forum ( name not mentioned ) doesn't scale injectors.
Why ? I haven't the slightest idea.
.
Perhaps they might be helpful.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...5&postcount=51
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&postcount=69
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=207924&page=5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For proper injector scaling ... at a reasonable price ... I think I'm going
to eventually contact Jester tuning. He's not only a tuner ... He's a programmer
that understands how the software works as well as the interaction.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=jester+tuning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is general knowledge that one of the more prominent tooners
on this forum ( name not mentioned ) doesn't scale injectors.
Why ? I haven't the slightest idea.
.
Last edited by Spec'd; Dec 23, 2006 at 01:18 PM.
Dec 23, 2006, 01:32 PM
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thanks for the links, those posts are very familiar 
The tuner that did my custom flash I think is different than who you're talking about.
Jestr will be in Houston in Jan. for a tuning session that I'm signed up for. With that in my back pocket, I got a little happy with the adjustments knowing if I got things too far out of wack, I'd have an expert bail me out within the month.
It's just odd the car is running good/strong with such wacky injector scaling compared to all that I've read.
The tuner that did my custom flash I think is different than who you're talking about.
Jestr will be in Houston in Jan. for a tuning session that I'm signed up for. With that in my back pocket, I got a little happy with the adjustments knowing if I got things too far out of wack, I'd have an expert bail me out within the month.
It's just odd the car is running good/strong with such wacky injector scaling compared to all that I've read.
Here are some links that I book-marked from my previous searches.
Perhaps they might be helpful.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...5&postcount=51
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&postcount=69
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=207924&page=5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For proper injector scaling ... at a reasonable price ... I think I'm going
to eventually contact Jester tuning. He's not only a tuner ... He's a programmer
that understands how the software works as well as the interaction.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=jester+tuning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is general knowledge that one of the more prominent tooners
on this forum ( name not mentioned ) doesn't scale injectors.
Why ? I haven't the slightest idea.
.
Perhaps they might be helpful.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...5&postcount=51
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...0&postcount=69
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=207924&page=5
----------------------------------------------------------------------
For proper injector scaling ... at a reasonable price ... I think I'm going
to eventually contact Jester tuning. He's not only a tuner ... He's a programmer
that understands how the software works as well as the interaction.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...=jester+tuning
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is general knowledge that one of the more prominent tooners
on this forum ( name not mentioned ) doesn't scale injectors.
Why ? I haven't the slightest idea.
.
Dec 23, 2006, 01:52 PM
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thanks for the links, those posts are very familiar
The tuner that did my custom flash I think is different than who you're talking about.
Jestr will be in Houston in Jan. for a tuning session that I'm signed up for. With that in my back pocket, I got a little happy with the adjustments knowing if I got things too far out of wack, I'd have an expert bail me out within the month.
It's just odd the car is running good/strong with such wacky injector scaling compared to all that I've read.
The tuner that did my custom flash I think is different than who you're talking about.
Jestr will be in Houston in Jan. for a tuning session that I'm signed up for. With that in my back pocket, I got a little happy with the adjustments knowing if I got things too far out of wack, I'd have an expert bail me out within the month.
It's just odd the car is running good/strong with such wacky injector scaling compared to all that I've read.
I'm certainly not an expert on injector scaling, however I have witnessed
a few strange anomolies regarding injector scaling. I guess the flow rates
can sometimes be somewhat ambiguous on certain injectors.
Most of the problems related to injector scaling seem to be idle issues or
openloop to closedloop low rpm issues.
Anyways, I hope it all worksout for you in the end and you get you car
dialed in perfectly.
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