Wideband O2 Shootout!
We have spoken to Mr. Mike Kojima the author of the Fordmuscle shootout and got first hand test details. According to Mr. Kojima his article was edited prior to the publication.
The tests were done using Innovate methodology and Innovate equipment.
There were several major flaws in the test, including but not limited to the way the O2 sensor was exposed to the test gases.
One of the major test flaws was reading the AFR value from the Zeitronix Zt-2 analog output using the Innovate logger. There is a voltage drop on the power-ground wire caring 12W of O2 sensor heater power and offsetting the AFR value. Reading the AFR value from the Innovate digital output but logging a raw Zt-2 voltage using Innovate logger suspected the Zt-2 AFR reading to the voltage drop, noise and Innovate logger analog to digital conversion offsets and conversion time.
The Zeitronix ZDL datalogging software should have been used to read the digital AFR value from the digital output of the Zt-2; not any other product brand.
Using the Innovate analog logger to read the Zt-2 (and other wideband meters) analong AFR value gave Innovate LC-1 unit, a half track length advantage in this 1/4 mile race. We either start from the same line or this test is not valid at all. This is an absolute violation and unscrupulous action.
The same goes for the "latency" measurement. The Zt-2 AFR readings were obtained by using the Innovate logger and software.
The Zeitronix ZDL software was not used in the test but scored the lowest.
For those who use our ZDL software know that hitting Enter starts logging, Enter stops. What's easier? "Clap on, clap off"?
Let me point out again that the other unit, which does not come with any logging software scored higher in the "Software" category.
Moreover, the Zt-2 scored the lowest in "ease of use" category. In order to get the AFR value from the Zt-2 all it takes is two wires to be connected to +12V and ground plus the O2 sensor placed in the exhaust stream. The Zeitronix LCD display plugs and powers up directly from the Zt-2.
As you suspect, Fordmuscle is sponsored by Innovate.
Eng
Zeitronix Inc.
The tests were done using Innovate methodology and Innovate equipment.
There were several major flaws in the test, including but not limited to the way the O2 sensor was exposed to the test gases.
One of the major test flaws was reading the AFR value from the Zeitronix Zt-2 analog output using the Innovate logger. There is a voltage drop on the power-ground wire caring 12W of O2 sensor heater power and offsetting the AFR value. Reading the AFR value from the Innovate digital output but logging a raw Zt-2 voltage using Innovate logger suspected the Zt-2 AFR reading to the voltage drop, noise and Innovate logger analog to digital conversion offsets and conversion time.
The Zeitronix ZDL datalogging software should have been used to read the digital AFR value from the digital output of the Zt-2; not any other product brand.
Using the Innovate analog logger to read the Zt-2 (and other wideband meters) analong AFR value gave Innovate LC-1 unit, a half track length advantage in this 1/4 mile race. We either start from the same line or this test is not valid at all. This is an absolute violation and unscrupulous action.
The same goes for the "latency" measurement. The Zt-2 AFR readings were obtained by using the Innovate logger and software.
The Zeitronix ZDL software was not used in the test but scored the lowest.
For those who use our ZDL software know that hitting Enter starts logging, Enter stops. What's easier? "Clap on, clap off"?
Let me point out again that the other unit, which does not come with any logging software scored higher in the "Software" category.
Moreover, the Zt-2 scored the lowest in "ease of use" category. In order to get the AFR value from the Zt-2 all it takes is two wires to be connected to +12V and ground plus the O2 sensor placed in the exhaust stream. The Zeitronix LCD display plugs and powers up directly from the Zt-2.
As you suspect, Fordmuscle is sponsored by Innovate.
Eng
Zeitronix Inc.
Amazing! So since there was no heater circuit run AND the logworks program was used to input the ZEITRONIX logs and NOT THE ZDL ZEITRONIX LOGGER the data was incorrect.
I would expect nothing less from a test where Innovate pays money to the article in advertising dollars.
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Amazing! So since there was no heater circuit run AND the logworks program was used to input the ZEITRONIX logs and NOT THE ZDL ZEITRONIX LOGGER the data was incorrect.
I would expect nothing less from a test where Innovate pays money to the article in advertising dollars.
I would expect nothing less from a test where Innovate pays money to the article in advertising dollars.
To clarify, the heater circuit was wired into the ground wire for ZEITRONIX and many other widebands in the test, affecting the voltage output of the sensors into LOGWORKS.
What happen in the test was the measurement error introduced to potentially every other unit but the LC-1. We KNOW for sure on the ZT2, because we know now first hand how they measured the AFR from the Zt-2 using logworks and not Zeitronix own ZDL datalogger.
Laws of physics tell us that every time there is a current run through wire there is a voltage drop across that wire. They grounded the Zt-2 (and other units) to the innovate logger using a power ground where the heater current goes through (about 12W) but at the same time used LC-1 digital output so the LC-1 was not subjected to any voltage drops, noise and A/D conversion errors.
On a top of that using Innovate hardware to benchmark other units in the test they compete is wrong on so many levels!
How can they run a wideband shootout USING INNOVATE's OWN SOFTWARE to input and interpret data from all of the other competitors when other widebands HAD THEIR OWN LOGGING SOFTWARE designed to be used with their own product? How messed up is that? In the end they rate other widebands ease of use to be poor when they DID NOT EVEN USE THE SOFTWARE THAT CAME WITH THE WIDEBAND, the inputted signals and ran them all through INNOVATE's Logworks!
What happen in the test was the measurement error introduced to potentially every other unit but the LC-1. We KNOW for sure on the ZT2, because we know now first hand how they measured the AFR from the Zt-2 using logworks and not Zeitronix own ZDL datalogger.
Laws of physics tell us that every time there is a current run through wire there is a voltage drop across that wire. They grounded the Zt-2 (and other units) to the innovate logger using a power ground where the heater current goes through (about 12W) but at the same time used LC-1 digital output so the LC-1 was not subjected to any voltage drops, noise and A/D conversion errors.
On a top of that using Innovate hardware to benchmark other units in the test they compete is wrong on so many levels!
How can they run a wideband shootout USING INNOVATE's OWN SOFTWARE to input and interpret data from all of the other competitors when other widebands HAD THEIR OWN LOGGING SOFTWARE designed to be used with their own product? How messed up is that? In the end they rate other widebands ease of use to be poor when they DID NOT EVEN USE THE SOFTWARE THAT CAME WITH THE WIDEBAND, the inputted signals and ran them all through INNOVATE's Logworks!
OK guys, can we agree that we are very lucky to have choice of wb that do an adequate job?
Ten years ago you had a choice of building your own from a kit or paying over a grand for a wb.
Its a great time to live. choose the one you like and has the features you want.
Ten years ago you had a choice of building your own from a kit or paying over a grand for a wb.
Its a great time to live. choose the one you like and has the features you want.
As long as zeitronix and ttp are here, I have and love my ZT2. But the article did bring up one conscern. Sensor wear and tear. Since TTP is a major ZT2 user have you guys noticed anything in respect to accuracy and latency with you older sensor ZT2s?
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
As long as zeitronix and ttp are here, I have and love my ZT2. But the article did bring up one conscern. Sensor wear and tear. Since TTP is a major ZT2 user have you guys noticed anything in respect to accuracy and latency with you older sensor ZT2s?
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
Gotta add this but truth be told .. I don't really care who's better or worse as long as they work ..
A local garage hooked up a motec unit on dyno and was looking for a portable and longer lasting unit for road.. bought an lc-1 .. attempted to calibrate against the motec.. ended up junking it and just bought more motec sensors
.. the readings were as much as 1.0AFR point off .. Not lab test .. but real world 'user' testing .. so go figure .. to each his own ..
Editted to add : I used the Analog 0-5v output tap to my blitz i-color for a more permanent incar graphing tool .. and the readings are like almost spot on with the ZDL .. luck ??
Last edited by gunzo; Jul 17, 2007 at 06:42 PM.
As long as zeitronix and ttp are here, I have and love my ZT2. But the article did bring up one conscern. Sensor wear and tear. Since TTP is a major ZT2 user have you guys noticed anything in respect to accuracy and latency with you older sensor ZT2s?
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
obviously your sensors would see far more abuse (race gas, backpressure, fuel additives, extreme egts etc...) than a typical street car, just want to know how you know its time to get a new sensor.
The sensor will go leaner as it dies. Your car will not retune itself. If AFRs deviate from the norm and no changes have been made to your mods, there is something wrong.
Somehow this doesn't surprise me. I got into a big argument with him over a year ago when Mike Kojima started endorsing the turbonetics turbo kit for the ser spec-v. He went on one forum and tried to compare the TN kit to all the other available kits without ever testing any of the other kits. Of course, TN was sponsoring his b15 time attack car with their kit, which I'm sure induced no bias in his "review" 
Let us assume that ALL the units are equally good and equally accurate. Would you not want a wideband that will tell you that you are getting an erroneous reading from the sensor? Do you really want a wideband that will continue to read a dying sensor w/o telling you that there is an error in the data?
Let us say that this study is bunk and poorly conducted, the fact still remains that the LC-1/LM-1 have the capability to tell you that your sensor has died rather than blissfully continue to give you bad AFR data.
Editted to add : I used the Analog 0-5v output tap to my blitz i-color for a more permanent incar graphing tool .. and the readings are like almost spot on with the ZDL .. luck ??
How many of you who are complaining use Evoscan to log ZT2, Innovate, and AEM data? I do it all the time and the numbers are accurate between logging with Evoscan and logging with Logworks. I frequently cross check the numbers, especially when I am having a problem that I need to trouble shoot.
Somehow this doesn't surprise me. I got into a big argument with him over a year ago when Mike Kojima started endorsing the turbonetics turbo kit for the ser spec-v. He went on one forum and tried to compare the TN kit to all the other available kits without ever testing any of the other kits. Of course, TN was sponsoring his b15 time attack car with their kit, which I'm sure induced no bias in his "review"
I think we are starting to zero in on the connection between NJ1266 and Innovate as more than just a fanatic "customer".
If there wasn't ALREADY enough drama, BIAS and MANIPULATION in this article, I wanted to also point out that Najii Dahi (NJ1266) is good friends with Mike Kojima.
I think we are starting to zero in on the connection between NJ1266 and Innovate as more than just a fanatic "customer".
I think we are starting to zero in on the connection between NJ1266 and Innovate as more than just a fanatic "customer".
As to my connection to Innovate. There is none besides being a thankfull customer. They helped me with my Xede plug-ins when no one else would. I have paid FULL market price for all my Innovate products and I have the reciepts to prove it.
Innovate does NOT need me. They control 40% of the wideband market. The Evo community will not make or break Innovate. The same cannot be said about ZT2. Outside the EVO community ZT2 has barely any presence. That is why you guys are so upset about this article. It is PROBABLY your only market and you are scared, so you lash out and throw hissy fits like little kids.
As I told Zeb before, If you do not like the results of this article call Innovate and organize another shootout based on mutually agreed upon and scientific methods. Innovate offered to do just that prior to this article and Zeb turned them down.
Kojima talked to the folks @ ZT2 @ MOD 07 and he also offered to supervise another shootout if ZT2 contacts Innovate to organize one. So what will it be?
SO I WILL SAY IT ONE MORE TIME: PUT UP OR SHUT THE HELL UP.
And please do not use my real name in a public forum. I do not like to be on some
hit list in the future.
The forum members can make their own determination whether your friendship with Mike Kojima, the article author and your unofficial spokeman position for Innovate have bleed any bias.
The whole putting up or shutting up competition already had a chance to happen. Unfortunately your friend Mr. Kojima took it upon himself to ground all of the other widebands to a heater circuit, affecting the accuracy. Furthermore instead of using each manufacturer's own datalogging software, he decided to use Innovate's software to input all the other wideband signals through it and then rate the competitions ease of use with their own software as "POOR" when he had not even used them.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. We have already discussed the free-air testing method of spraying a gas on a sensor not installed in an exhaust pipe.
This test is not even bathroom reading material worthy.
The whole putting up or shutting up competition already had a chance to happen. Unfortunately your friend Mr. Kojima took it upon himself to ground all of the other widebands to a heater circuit, affecting the accuracy. Furthermore instead of using each manufacturer's own datalogging software, he decided to use Innovate's software to input all the other wideband signals through it and then rate the competitions ease of use with their own software as "POOR" when he had not even used them.
This is just the tip of the iceberg. We have already discussed the free-air testing method of spraying a gas on a sensor not installed in an exhaust pipe.
This test is not even bathroom reading material worthy.
I would normally state that its lucky for innovate that there was not a feature test as most of the things the ZEITRONIX ZT2 can do and is used for, Innovate could only dream of doing.
In the end the contest still would not be fair as Innovate was a FINANCIALLY $$$ SPONSORING contestant in the test and non-biased results would be all but impossible, much like the aformentioned test currently being discussed.
In the end the contest still would not be fair as Innovate was a FINANCIALLY $$$ SPONSORING contestant in the test and non-biased results would be all but impossible, much like the aformentioned test currently being discussed.
Again, If you do not like the results of the test, go ahead and conduct another test.
YOU ARE THE ONE COMPLAINING, SO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
Have ZT2 contact innovate and do a one-on-one shootout using a mutually agree upon methodology.
Innovate has already offered and ZT2 rejected. Kojima has offered his services and he was rejected. This is TWICE in a row.
If ZT2 does not do that, then they have no leg to stand on. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
YOU ARE THE ONE COMPLAINING, SO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
Have ZT2 contact innovate and do a one-on-one shootout using a mutually agree upon methodology.
Innovate has already offered and ZT2 rejected. Kojima has offered his services and he was rejected. This is TWICE in a row.
If ZT2 does not do that, then they have no leg to stand on. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
Last edited by nj1266; Jul 18, 2007 at 12:11 PM.
Again, If you do not like the results of the test, go ahead and conduct another test.
YOU ARE THE ONE COMPLAINING, SO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
Have ZT2 contact innovate and do a one-on-one shootout using a mutually agree upon methodology.
Innovate has already offered and ZT2 rejected. Kojima has offered his services and he was rejected. This is TWICE in a row.
If ZT2 does not do that, then they have no leg to stand on. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
YOU ARE THE ONE COMPLAINING, SO PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.
Have ZT2 contact innovate and do a one-on-one shootout using a mutually agree upon methodology.
Innovate has already offered and ZT2 rejected. Kojima has offered his services and he was rejected. This is TWICE in a row.
If ZT2 does not do that, then they have no leg to stand on. PUT UP OR SHUT UP.
Kojima had a chance and chose to FUBAR the test, deceive readers of the article by misleading test results and rating the ease of use as POOR when he did not even use the wideband's software.
Maybe too many Innovate $$$ sponsor dollars were too much to resist the temptation to test the units while upholding integrity and honesty. Further testing will be assumed to be manipulated with financial pressures from a $pon$oring vendor.