L@@King for best tuner in CO
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From: Virginia Beach, Virginia
The tunes I send out are based on previous tunes with WB02 data, they typically don't require much if any fuel adjustment
This might be a dumb question... But i have to ask.
When you get a tune, say for a full 3inch and boost controller(no injectors or cam changes). Do the tuners just modify the fuel and timing tables???
Because, anybody with a wideband and mitsulogger can tune a car this way....
Just wondering.
When you get a tune, say for a full 3inch and boost controller(no injectors or cam changes). Do the tuners just modify the fuel and timing tables???
Because, anybody with a wideband and mitsulogger can tune a car this way....
Just wondering.
Ive heard about this "justdsm" and I'm not sure that he uses a dyno(maybe he will chime in). I think it is best to tune on a dyno, not just for numbers but to find the optimal torque curve for an individual car.
Optimal torque curve can easily be witnessed with graphing spool up. Theres no question that the faster you make peak boost, the faster you get to peak torque. They are one and the same. So dyno's in my opinion are not necessary for tuning, but rather engine break in's and parts comparisons.
Mellon, I know its possible, and I even thought about starting to do it myself (email tunes). But when i really started thinking about it, how many cars have you road tuned that you started out with a base map and had to do untold amount of tweaking to get it just right? I dont know about you, but it takes me an hour or two in order to tune a car from scratch. You cant tell me that you have a library of base flashes with every combination of parts/cams/turbos out there to get you wideband numbers.
Have you ever had the pleasure of tuning on 91 pisstane? Trust me, its just that much harder to get spool up and peak torque in check when dealing with crap gas.
Think of it this way, and this is where I get scared. What if the car is running 12.0 afr's peak thru, and a little less timing. How do you know without a wideband? Sure it doesnt show knock, because you took out some timing...but what if the guy gets a bad tank of gas? What if he puts in 87 on accident? Things like that happen, and I would hate to hear that some guys motor went to pieces because of my tuning. Specially with that shadow of doubt that I had no clue what afr's they were running. I keep logs of everyone I tune, just in case. I can go back and show them look, this is what you were running when you left, and this is standard for 91 octane. Low 11's afr, no knock. Can you say that?
Mellon, I know its possible, and I even thought about starting to do it myself (email tunes). But when i really started thinking about it, how many cars have you road tuned that you started out with a base map and had to do untold amount of tweaking to get it just right? I dont know about you, but it takes me an hour or two in order to tune a car from scratch. You cant tell me that you have a library of base flashes with every combination of parts/cams/turbos out there to get you wideband numbers.
Have you ever had the pleasure of tuning on 91 pisstane? Trust me, its just that much harder to get spool up and peak torque in check when dealing with crap gas.
Think of it this way, and this is where I get scared. What if the car is running 12.0 afr's peak thru, and a little less timing. How do you know without a wideband? Sure it doesnt show knock, because you took out some timing...but what if the guy gets a bad tank of gas? What if he puts in 87 on accident? Things like that happen, and I would hate to hear that some guys motor went to pieces because of my tuning. Specially with that shadow of doubt that I had no clue what afr's they were running. I keep logs of everyone I tune, just in case. I can go back and show them look, this is what you were running when you left, and this is standard for 91 octane. Low 11's afr, no knock. Can you say that?
Optimal torque curve can easily be witnessed with graphing spool up. Theres no question that the faster you make peak boost, the faster you get to peak torque. They are one and the same. So dyno's in my opinion are not necessary for tuning, but rather engine break in's and parts comparisons.
Mellon, I know its possible, and I even thought about starting to do it myself (email tunes). But when i really started thinking about it, how many cars have you road tuned that you started out with a base map and had to do untold amount of tweaking to get it just right? I dont know about you, but it takes me an hour or two in order to tune a car from scratch. You cant tell me that you have a library of base flashes with every combination of parts/cams/turbos out there to get you wideband numbers.
Have you ever had the pleasure of tuning on 91 pisstane? Trust me, its just that much harder to get spool up and peak torque in check when dealing with crap gas.
Think of it this way, and this is where I get scared. What if the car is running 12.0 afr's peak thru, and a little less timing. How do you know without a wideband? Sure it doesnt show knock, because you took out some timing...but what if the guy gets a bad tank of gas? What if he puts in 87 on accident? Things like that happen, and I would hate to hear that some guys motor went to pieces because of my tuning. Specially with that shadow of doubt that I had no clue what afr's they were running. I keep logs of everyone I tune, just in case. I can go back and show them look, this is what you were running when you left, and this is standard for 91 octane. Low 11's afr, no knock. Can you say that?
Mellon, I know its possible, and I even thought about starting to do it myself (email tunes). But when i really started thinking about it, how many cars have you road tuned that you started out with a base map and had to do untold amount of tweaking to get it just right? I dont know about you, but it takes me an hour or two in order to tune a car from scratch. You cant tell me that you have a library of base flashes with every combination of parts/cams/turbos out there to get you wideband numbers.
Have you ever had the pleasure of tuning on 91 pisstane? Trust me, its just that much harder to get spool up and peak torque in check when dealing with crap gas.
Think of it this way, and this is where I get scared. What if the car is running 12.0 afr's peak thru, and a little less timing. How do you know without a wideband? Sure it doesnt show knock, because you took out some timing...but what if the guy gets a bad tank of gas? What if he puts in 87 on accident? Things like that happen, and I would hate to hear that some guys motor went to pieces because of my tuning. Specially with that shadow of doubt that I had no clue what afr's they were running. I keep logs of everyone I tune, just in case. I can go back and show them look, this is what you were running when you left, and this is standard for 91 octane. Low 11's afr, no knock. Can you say that?
I give the tunee (hehe) the option.
Last edited by JustDSM; Aug 7, 2007 at 03:17 PM.
Thanks for clearing that up Justdsm...
I have to dissagree about the road vs. dyno argument. With a dyno you can do many pulls starting at a predetermined rpm and log a bunch of different things(boost. rpm. hp/tq).
I wasn't talking about fastest spool up... I'm talking about torque after 5k rpms when timing advance plays a huge factor in torque. Most people here talk about advancing timing till you hit knock, but I think it would be better to advance timing untill your torque drops off at that rpm.
JustDSM; what is your preferred way to tune Dyno or road?
I have to dissagree about the road vs. dyno argument. With a dyno you can do many pulls starting at a predetermined rpm and log a bunch of different things(boost. rpm. hp/tq).
I wasn't talking about fastest spool up... I'm talking about torque after 5k rpms when timing advance plays a huge factor in torque. Most people here talk about advancing timing till you hit knock, but I think it would be better to advance timing untill your torque drops off at that rpm.
JustDSM; what is your preferred way to tune Dyno or road?
I offer two options for the guys I tune. I give them the option of whether or not they want it tuned on the dyno (Dyno Dynamics) or a road tune. Surprisingly most choose the road, due to cost is my guess. Although I've worked an agreement with the shop owner for discounted rates since I operate the dyno and do all the setup.
I give the tunee (hehe) the option.
I give the tunee (hehe) the option.
thats right
and am gonna do the dyno tuning with you
Ive seen cars tuned on dynos pull off and go do a road pull and get 10-15 counts of knock. Basically the guy went to a different shop a whole nother state away because he wasnt pleased with his tune (I didnt do it, I just logged it for him a few days later). I prefer real world tuning.
As for torque dropping off...sure if your tuning for that. But if your tuning for peak torque, and pull timing, guess what just happened to your horsepower? Torque gets you moving, but horsepower keeps you accelerating past that. Pull timing and lose your horsepower for a few more ft lbs of torque in the upper rpms? Ask any tuner what they think of that
Oh and on a side note, I dont want Mellon to think I was picking on him. I was a little harsh in my post, and I didnt mean it towards him. Those were my personal thoughts when I considered doing email tunes, and why I decided to not open that can of worms.
As for torque dropping off...sure if your tuning for that. But if your tuning for peak torque, and pull timing, guess what just happened to your horsepower? Torque gets you moving, but horsepower keeps you accelerating past that. Pull timing and lose your horsepower for a few more ft lbs of torque in the upper rpms? Ask any tuner what they think of that
Oh and on a side note, I dont want Mellon to think I was picking on him. I was a little harsh in my post, and I didnt mean it towards him. Those were my personal thoughts when I considered doing email tunes, and why I decided to not open that can of worms.
Last edited by 20psiMR; Aug 9, 2007 at 09:53 AM.
