openport 2.0
Apr 23, 2008, 08:47 AM
#16
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I sure hope so. I'm not a big fan of Cobb anything either. Just saying that at least their version offers some form of customer tunability. Waiting for other options here. ECUtek can still bite the big one.
Apr 23, 2008, 10:30 AM
#17
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I know the local tuning shop is going to charge about 1100 to tune the EVO, but so far I have been very impressed with past experiences with them and know they wont rest until its topped out. That and the fact that I can under stand the charge. The cost of a dyno dynamics AWD dyno can be as high as 200,000. I dont think its out too much, they gotta pay the bills some how right?
Apr 23, 2008, 10:34 AM
#18
If im paying 700 for a product thats all the more reason to have end user tunability. ECUTek is a great product that hit the market fast for the X and does a great job from what we have seen here.
Id much rather buy a stand alone for a few hundred more that I have full control over and allows me to have access to many different features within the software. 700 for a one time flash is a joke.
Once opensource software hits if it is compareable to current EVO opensource software you all will tune with that as well of you wouldnt make money.
So props to ECUTek for being the first to do thier thing and get the product out here for these X cats but boo for your rediculous pricing and licensing BS.
Opensource FTMFW
Id much rather buy a stand alone for a few hundred more that I have full control over and allows me to have access to many different features within the software. 700 for a one time flash is a joke.
Once opensource software hits if it is compareable to current EVO opensource software you all will tune with that as well of you wouldnt make money.
So props to ECUTek for being the first to do thier thing and get the product out here for these X cats but boo for your rediculous pricing and licensing BS.
Opensource FTMFW
Apr 23, 2008, 11:27 AM
#19
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But Seriously...I have to be able to tune the car myself or Im not throwing down the cash. I havent used DeltaDash but it looks pretty limiting based on the screenshots Ive seen on the website. I havent heard if it will even be available for the X. The AP Street Tuner sounds interesting...but if Ecuflash is in the works....there is no reason to goto anything else.
Last edited by wickedchimp; Apr 23, 2008 at 11:36 AM.
Apr 23, 2008, 04:59 PM
#21
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Its interesting that the Evo community feels this way as back in 2003 members had no problem to pay $595 for brain flashes and vishnu flashes which they could not program themselves.
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
Al
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
Al
Apr 23, 2008, 05:35 PM
#22
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Its interesting that the Evo community feels this way as back in 2003 members had no problem to pay $595 for brain flashes and vishnu flashes which they could not program themselves.
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
With regards to tuning other vehicle brands and comparing these tuning solutions to Mitsubishi. VW, Audi, and BMW's have SEVERAL different tuning options available, most of them offering SOME level of end user selectability. ex. Audi S4's have tune's available for different level's of performance that you only purchase once and have some level of selectability based on what fuel you're using, mods, etc, etc.
Finally, since you mentioned VW, Audi, and BMW's why stop there? As I'm sure you're aware, Chevrolet, Ford, Chrysler, have tuning options as well. HPTuners charges a licensing fee, but allows you to purchase additional credits for several vehicles and you have the ability to tune your own vehicle as many times as you see fit. Although, with that being said, there are people who purchase this software and still pay someone with with epertise as a tuner, to maximize the potential of their tune ex. You. Comparing other vehicle to ours is a mute issue with limitless arguements. What the market demanded in 03 is not the same as what the market demands in 08, period
Apr 23, 2008, 06:38 PM
#23
1. disabled boost limit which means if you have a boost spike, then you do not have the factory boost cut to protect you.
2. Block tuned timing maps which means that the tuner did not even bother to log the 2 byte load inorder to figure what timing cell to modify. A lot of timing maps had rows of 888888888888 in them.
3. Collapsed timing an fuel maps which means that the tuner made the hi/lo timing and fuel maps the same. If your car happens to encounter knock and your ECU searches for a safe timing/fuel map, then your car is SOL since there isn't one.
4. Loads of knock since the pro-tuner felt that knock sum is not really knock, but just floor noise. One pro-tuner still feels that way.
I had personal experience with some of this. The timing on my Evo 8 was set at 19* of timing advance on 91 octane by redline. The car was pulling timing like crazy. It felt like utter ****. Only when I started mixing 91+100 octane to get 93 did the knocking stop.
I have sworn that never again would I seek a pro-tuner. NEVER, EVER.
As the saying goes: "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."
Apr 23, 2008, 06:46 PM
#24
I have to agree that is one reason our community demands end user functionality. People relized the ability was there to analyze thier "Professional Tunes" that there cars were flashed with back in 03-05 and what many of them find crap utter crap.
Apr 23, 2008, 06:46 PM
#25
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Its interesting that the Evo community feels this way as back in 2003 members had no problem to pay $595 for brain flashes and vishnu flashes which they could not program themselves.
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
Al
A reflash offered by a professional tuner is composed of two seperate products in one - 1 the ability to tune the car and 2 the actual IP of how they tune the car.
Based upon what reflashes go for that are non end user tunable in the VW, Audi and BMW world and which are not even custom tuned, I feel that $750 is a bargain for a custom tuned professionaly set up reflash tuned on the dyno for 2 - 3 hours. In most examples the dyno time alone would be $300 - $450.
Al
Cheers-
E
Apr 23, 2008, 09:07 PM
#26
There is a reason why we feel that way. When we did not have ECUflash and Evoscan we did not know the quality of the tunes that the pro-tuners provided. When Evoscan came on the market, we discovered that the $600 tunes that a lot of people (including myself) paid for were horrible. Here is what we found out:
1. disabled boost limit which means if you have a boost spike, then you do not have the factory boost cut to protect you.
2. Block tuned timing maps which means that the tuner did not even bother to log the 2 byte load inorder to figure what timing cell to modify. A lot of timing maps had rows of 888888888888 in them.
3. Collapsed timing an fuel maps which means that the tuner made the hi/lo timing and fuel maps the same. If your car happens to encounter knock and your ECU searches for a safe timing/fuel map, then your car is SOL since there isn't one.
4. Loads of knock since the pro-tuner felt that knock sum is not really knock, but just floor noise. One pro-tuner still feels that way.
I had personal experience with some of this. The timing on my Evo 8 was set at 19* of timing advance on 91 octane by redline. The car was pulling timing like crazy. It felt like utter ****. Only when I started mixing 91+100 octane to get 93 did the knocking stop.
I have sworn that never again would I seek a pro-tuner. NEVER, EVER.
As the saying goes: "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."
1. disabled boost limit which means if you have a boost spike, then you do not have the factory boost cut to protect you.
2. Block tuned timing maps which means that the tuner did not even bother to log the 2 byte load inorder to figure what timing cell to modify. A lot of timing maps had rows of 888888888888 in them.
3. Collapsed timing an fuel maps which means that the tuner made the hi/lo timing and fuel maps the same. If your car happens to encounter knock and your ECU searches for a safe timing/fuel map, then your car is SOL since there isn't one.
4. Loads of knock since the pro-tuner felt that knock sum is not really knock, but just floor noise. One pro-tuner still feels that way.
I had personal experience with some of this. The timing on my Evo 8 was set at 19* of timing advance on 91 octane by redline. The car was pulling timing like crazy. It felt like utter ****. Only when I started mixing 91+100 octane to get 93 did the knocking stop.
I have sworn that never again would I seek a pro-tuner. NEVER, EVER.
As the saying goes: "Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on me."
The only thing that is foolish is to unilaterally say that all "pro" or professional tuned cars will have problems. I am sorry to be harsh, but that is beyond retarded and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on EvoM. There are several posts, sig quotes, etc on here about your "tunes", yet your above post is a poor veiled attempt to bash on two different vendors here who together have hundreds and hundreds of happy customers who have racetrack proven results. Yet here you are again to promote yourself and wave your flag of hate toward someone who knows more than you.
EcuTeK is a tuning tool much like Ecuflash. The tune and the mapping is obviously only as good as its author. The difference is EcuTeK is once again pioneering in the industry, and Ecuflash is a lower priced tuning tool (who some even consider an emulation) that came later. A lot of these professional tuners by trade have used both with great results.
Some of the situations and practices you speak of above are about piggybacks, and some are old practices that haven't happened in 3 years.
Here's an idea for you- Stop being a grudge vulture and start contributing with a positive spin.
Last edited by Noize; Apr 23, 2008 at 09:10 PM.
Apr 23, 2008, 09:31 PM
#27
There is a third part to the above you just posted, Naji: If you keep spewing the same crap and bashing vendors on here, you will get another infraction.
The only thing that is foolish is to unilaterally say that all "pro" or professional tuned cars will have problems. I am sorry to be harsh, but that is beyond retarded and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on EvoM. There are several posts, sig quotes, etc on here about your "tunes", yet your above post is a poor veiled attempt to bash on two different vendors here who together have hundreds and hundreds of happy customers who have racetrack proven results. Yet here you are again to promote yourself and wave your flag of hate toward someone who knows more than you.
EcuTeK is a tuning tool much like Ecuflash. The tune and the mapping is obviously only as good as its author. The difference is EcuTeK is once again pioneering in the industry, and Ecuflash is a lower priced tuning tool (who some even consider an emulation) that came later. A lot of these professional tuners by trade have used both with great results.
Some of the situations and practices you speak of above are about piggybacks, and some are old practices that haven't happened in 3 years.
Here's an idea for you- Stop being a grudge vulture and start contributing with a positive spin.
The only thing that is foolish is to unilaterally say that all "pro" or professional tuned cars will have problems. I am sorry to be harsh, but that is beyond retarded and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on EvoM. There are several posts, sig quotes, etc on here about your "tunes", yet your above post is a poor veiled attempt to bash on two different vendors here who together have hundreds and hundreds of happy customers who have racetrack proven results. Yet here you are again to promote yourself and wave your flag of hate toward someone who knows more than you.
EcuTeK is a tuning tool much like Ecuflash. The tune and the mapping is obviously only as good as its author. The difference is EcuTeK is once again pioneering in the industry, and Ecuflash is a lower priced tuning tool (who some even consider an emulation) that came later. A lot of these professional tuners by trade have used both with great results.
Some of the situations and practices you speak of above are about piggybacks, and some are old practices that haven't happened in 3 years.
Here's an idea for you- Stop being a grudge vulture and start contributing with a positive spin.
Past practice is a good guide of future practice. Past practice MIGHT have continued had we not had access to Evoscan and ECUflash.
As to my tuning. Who else took the time and wrote a full how to tune an EVO. I challenge anyone to disagree with what I wrote. Here it is. Read it. Why would moderators make it a sticky and it has 419 replies and over 35,000 hits. Yeah, I am a bad tuner, LOL
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/sh...d.php?t=302895
As for the quote you refer to it is by sky_evo and taken out of context. Here is the full quote:
The best thing that PD1 did to this car was dyno it in 4th gear. This is the best gear to dyno in. It puts the most load on the car and allows the ECU time to collect very rich data.
When I get access to a dyno I will ONLY tune cars in 4th gear. Thumbs up way up to pd1.
Second, you need injectors when you have a TBE w/tp and an open element filter and you are using the ECU to control boost. ECU boost control holds at least 2 more psi up top than an MBC. That requires more fuel and the stock injectors get maxed out and you lose control over the AFR. I have had that happen to a lot of Evos that I have tuned.
Third, you need a baseline dyno to judge the gains on this car rather than look at peak numbers. These numbers mean nothing since there was no baseline done. I do understand that the injectors were not scaled for a baseline, but that could have been fixed by using a baseline injector scaling/latency for a base dyno pull. After that you can scale the injectors to perfection and go from there. That is what I do when a custoemr has injectors and wants a baseline.
Peak numbers are for the never ending e-***** contests...but gains are what really counts in a tune. Since there is no baseline on the car, then we do not know how much power the car gained.
When I get access to a dyno I will ONLY tune cars in 4th gear. Thumbs up way up to pd1.
Second, you need injectors when you have a TBE w/tp and an open element filter and you are using the ECU to control boost. ECU boost control holds at least 2 more psi up top than an MBC. That requires more fuel and the stock injectors get maxed out and you lose control over the AFR. I have had that happen to a lot of Evos that I have tuned.
Third, you need a baseline dyno to judge the gains on this car rather than look at peak numbers. These numbers mean nothing since there was no baseline done. I do understand that the injectors were not scaled for a baseline, but that could have been fixed by using a baseline injector scaling/latency for a base dyno pull. After that you can scale the injectors to perfection and go from there. That is what I do when a custoemr has injectors and wants a baseline.
Peak numbers are for the never ending e-***** contests...but gains are what really counts in a tune. Since there is no baseline on the car, then we do not know how much power the car gained.
BTW, razorlab had a similar experience with ECUboost and tespipe/intake. Just ask him and he will confirm what I said.
I did not flame anyone. I am stating facts. These practices that I listed happened. There are many threads to prove that this happened. Will they happen on the EVO X? Let us wait and see. The only mistake I made was to imply ALL. Alright, how about if I say A LOT of pro-tuners produce poor tunes. Is that good enough??
Last edited by nj1266; Apr 23, 2008 at 09:49 PM.
Apr 23, 2008, 09:33 PM
#28
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There is a third part to the above you just posted, Naji: If you keep spewing the same crap and bashing vendors on here, you will get another infraction.
The only thing that is foolish is to unilaterally say that all "pro" or professional tuned cars will have problems. I am sorry to be harsh, but that is beyond retarded and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on EvoM. There are several posts, sig quotes, etc on here about your "tunes", yet your above post is a poor veiled attempt to bash on two different vendors here who together have hundreds and hundreds of happy customers who have racetrack proven results. Yet here you are again to promote yourself and wave your flag of hate toward someone who knows more than you.
EcuTeK is a tuning tool much like Ecuflash. The tune and the mapping is obviously only as good as its author. The difference is EcuTeK is once again pioneering in the industry, and Ecuflash is a lower priced tuning tool (who some even consider an emulation) that came later. A lot of these professional tuners by trade have used both with great results.
Some of the situations and practices you speak of above are about piggybacks, and some are old practices that haven't happened in 3 years.
Here's an idea for you- Stop being a grudge vulture and start contributing with a positive spin.
The only thing that is foolish is to unilaterally say that all "pro" or professional tuned cars will have problems. I am sorry to be harsh, but that is beyond retarded and one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on EvoM. There are several posts, sig quotes, etc on here about your "tunes", yet your above post is a poor veiled attempt to bash on two different vendors here who together have hundreds and hundreds of happy customers who have racetrack proven results. Yet here you are again to promote yourself and wave your flag of hate toward someone who knows more than you.
EcuTeK is a tuning tool much like Ecuflash. The tune and the mapping is obviously only as good as its author. The difference is EcuTeK is once again pioneering in the industry, and Ecuflash is a lower priced tuning tool (who some even consider an emulation) that came later. A lot of these professional tuners by trade have used both with great results.
Some of the situations and practices you speak of above are about piggybacks, and some are old practices that haven't happened in 3 years.
Here's an idea for you- Stop being a grudge vulture and start contributing with a positive spin.
Last edited by A418t81; Apr 23, 2008 at 09:35 PM.
Apr 23, 2008, 09:42 PM
#29
Noize, a lot of what you say is indeed true, but NJ is also in the right here as well. When ECUflash was released and people started pulling "tunes" they paid hundreds of dollars for and realized that many of these tuners didn't even know what they were doing. Lets go with the injector scaling issue which was hilariously pathetic for a few different tuners with fuel maps in the 17s and dropping as "correction" for larger injectors, no wonder they ran like crap. ECUflash showed that many of these guys either: A)didn't know how to properly scale injectors B. didn't have access to the correct maps using old software or C. all of the above (I'm going with C).
Apr 23, 2008, 11:10 PM
#30
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I said this before and will say it again....there will be much better tuning products and a more reasonable price in the future. While I don't think that 750 dollars is WAY out of line, the fact that the knowledge can not be tested, i.e. the tune examined is a huge liability.
I personally predict that in 12 months AL will have developed another method for tuning that offers some more user tunability and is more open.
In the end, anyone who tries to hoard information loses. This has been proven time and time again in the marketplace. Since the advent of the internet and the ease of information sharing, secrets, specifically business or information can not be kept for long. It produces ill will with those early adopters, it is inevitably proven inefficient or improved upon, and is not very profitable.
YOU HEARD IT FROM ME FIRST, ECUTEK WILL NOT BE IN THE MARKET LONG WITH THEIR CURRENT BUSINESS PLAN. Opensource will be developed and will offer the same or more features at a lower price in the future. In my case it is not really relevant. I will be contacting AL when I pull the trigger on the X and need to get a tune. I will not be buying the band-aids that are being offered in the form of intakes.
I will be getting off my soapbox. I am leaving for vacation tomorrow.
I personally predict that in 12 months AL will have developed another method for tuning that offers some more user tunability and is more open.
In the end, anyone who tries to hoard information loses. This has been proven time and time again in the marketplace. Since the advent of the internet and the ease of information sharing, secrets, specifically business or information can not be kept for long. It produces ill will with those early adopters, it is inevitably proven inefficient or improved upon, and is not very profitable.
YOU HEARD IT FROM ME FIRST, ECUTEK WILL NOT BE IN THE MARKET LONG WITH THEIR CURRENT BUSINESS PLAN. Opensource will be developed and will offer the same or more features at a lower price in the future. In my case it is not really relevant. I will be contacting AL when I pull the trigger on the X and need to get a tune. I will not be buying the band-aids that are being offered in the form of intakes.
I will be getting off my soapbox. I am leaving for vacation tomorrow.