New Motor Build, Looking for Tuning Advice..
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
New Motor Build, Looking for Tuning Advice..
Hey All..
So, I had the unfortunate luck of snaping a headstud off in the block removing them to replace with ARP's. About 2000 miles ago, I blew up the coolant pump and lifted the head I believe, because two of the headbolts were rusted like all hell, and the others look brand new. Got one out, and the other just didn't want to come out. I am pretty sure that coolant leaked past the headgasket and filled two of the headbolt holes with coolant causing them to rust all up and one ended up siezing up. So, I am in process of pulling the motor now and sending it to a machine shop. So, here is what is going on now:
1. 9.5:1 CP pistons with upgraded wrist pins and coatings.
2. Eagle Rods (I Don't have huge power goals)
3. Full Cleavite Bearing Set
4. New Thrust Bearings
5. ARP Main Stud Kit
6. GSC S2's
7. Mildly Ported Head (My own porting) with upgraded Valvetrain (GSC Single Springs with Chromoly Retainers).
7. Going to have Machine Shop Machine Off Counterweights from Balance Shafts (Please discuss - Should I have them do this?)
8. New Intercooler & All New Custom Pipework
9. Megan Manifold All Rewelded, Braced, and Made the Right Way Now.
10. New OEM Headgasket & All other necessary gaskets.
.... and a bunch of other small stuff.
Now, the reason I posted this here, is what can I expect in tuning the 9.5:1 compression?
A few more tidbits of information on how the car was set-up prior:
1. Car was running on E85, and is going to stay that way.
2. 2005 Evo VIII
3. Heavily ported IX Turbo, previously running 30.5psi tapering to 24.5psi
4. GSC S1's
5. Ported Intake Manifold & T/B
6. Ported Stock Exhaust Manifold
7. eBay O2 Housing, TBE (No Cat)
8. Cam Gears
9. And lots of other stuff that really doesn't matter.
So, basically, the car is getting pretty much fully built, only with the stuff above. Going to 9.5:1 on E85 with a now fully built top half, I am assuming the following:
1. Lower timing numbers due to the compression. Now, should this be all across the ENTIRE map?
2. Lower boost. I am assuming I should shoot for roughly 25-27psi on the IX turbo, to "stay" in the efficiency range. Is this too much?
What kind of other things should I be ready for once the car is up and running again? I have never tuned a higher compression turbo car, only tons of stock compression Evo's. Any and all advice is really welcome, as well as non-tuning "parts" advice while the motor is out of the car.
One more thing, once the car is properly tuned by me, what should I be expecting from this thing? I am assuming more pre-boost power, less boost to achieve the same power levels before, more responsive, better spool, etc..
After you read all of that, you can see a lot of assuming! "Un-assume me!"
I am really excited to do this build, and do all the tuning myself. I am just wanting to get a gameplan ahead of time so I can be ready by the tie the motor is back in the car.
Thanks all..
So, I had the unfortunate luck of snaping a headstud off in the block removing them to replace with ARP's. About 2000 miles ago, I blew up the coolant pump and lifted the head I believe, because two of the headbolts were rusted like all hell, and the others look brand new. Got one out, and the other just didn't want to come out. I am pretty sure that coolant leaked past the headgasket and filled two of the headbolt holes with coolant causing them to rust all up and one ended up siezing up. So, I am in process of pulling the motor now and sending it to a machine shop. So, here is what is going on now:
1. 9.5:1 CP pistons with upgraded wrist pins and coatings.
2. Eagle Rods (I Don't have huge power goals)
3. Full Cleavite Bearing Set
4. New Thrust Bearings
5. ARP Main Stud Kit
6. GSC S2's
7. Mildly Ported Head (My own porting) with upgraded Valvetrain (GSC Single Springs with Chromoly Retainers).
7. Going to have Machine Shop Machine Off Counterweights from Balance Shafts (Please discuss - Should I have them do this?)
8. New Intercooler & All New Custom Pipework
9. Megan Manifold All Rewelded, Braced, and Made the Right Way Now.
10. New OEM Headgasket & All other necessary gaskets.
.... and a bunch of other small stuff.
Now, the reason I posted this here, is what can I expect in tuning the 9.5:1 compression?
A few more tidbits of information on how the car was set-up prior:
1. Car was running on E85, and is going to stay that way.
2. 2005 Evo VIII
3. Heavily ported IX Turbo, previously running 30.5psi tapering to 24.5psi
4. GSC S1's
5. Ported Intake Manifold & T/B
6. Ported Stock Exhaust Manifold
7. eBay O2 Housing, TBE (No Cat)
8. Cam Gears
9. And lots of other stuff that really doesn't matter.
So, basically, the car is getting pretty much fully built, only with the stuff above. Going to 9.5:1 on E85 with a now fully built top half, I am assuming the following:
1. Lower timing numbers due to the compression. Now, should this be all across the ENTIRE map?
2. Lower boost. I am assuming I should shoot for roughly 25-27psi on the IX turbo, to "stay" in the efficiency range. Is this too much?
What kind of other things should I be ready for once the car is up and running again? I have never tuned a higher compression turbo car, only tons of stock compression Evo's. Any and all advice is really welcome, as well as non-tuning "parts" advice while the motor is out of the car.
One more thing, once the car is properly tuned by me, what should I be expecting from this thing? I am assuming more pre-boost power, less boost to achieve the same power levels before, more responsive, better spool, etc..
After you read all of that, you can see a lot of assuming! "Un-assume me!"
I am really excited to do this build, and do all the tuning myself. I am just wanting to get a gameplan ahead of time so I can be ready by the tie the motor is back in the car.Thanks all..
Last edited by tkklemann; Jul 6, 2008 at 05:39 PM.
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,077
Likes: 1
From: Still in NC!! Loving retired life!!
I'm not completely certain about the tuning side of things but I would think you would need less timing when under boost and probably at least a little less timing.
I'm thinking you would have a great deal more low end torque because of the additional static compression.
Just my .02
Josh
I'm thinking you would have a great deal more low end torque because of the additional static compression.
Just my .02
Josh
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
I'm not completely certain about the tuning side of things but I would think you would need less timing when under boost and probably at least a little less timing.
I'm thinking you would have a great deal more low end torque because of the additional static compression.
Just my .02
Josh
I'm thinking you would have a great deal more low end torque because of the additional static compression.
Just my .02
Josh
The timing under boost as well as off boost I am thinking exactly that, having to run less than what my E85 map is currently at.
My suggestion first off would be to get a hold of some L19 head studs for that type of static compression. (let me know if you need some)
Secondly with E 85 it should prove to be a pretty good setup. I a have tried running that type of SC before on pump fuel but not on E85. It will prove itself to be quite efficient.
This is my suggestion for Boost and ignition timing. Take it for what is worth but I have spent a great deal of time playing with higher that stock SC ratios.
I would start off with no more than 19 psi. In reality I would run closer to 17 and tune from there. Base ignition timing you should set and run thru the rpm band. Meaning, at 17 psi I would run (for example) 8 degrees from peak torque all the way to redline. Log and increase slightly after peak torque in a linear fashion. Once your base boost pressure, fuel and ignition map are made I would save the map and slowly in 1 lb increments increase boost until 23 psi. Again log and see what your knock threshold tendencies have become after 5 psi of boost. This should give you a really good picture on how far to push the system. If you need any help on a base map let me know. I can set something up for you and email it to get you started.
Secondly with E 85 it should prove to be a pretty good setup. I a have tried running that type of SC before on pump fuel but not on E85. It will prove itself to be quite efficient.
This is my suggestion for Boost and ignition timing. Take it for what is worth but I have spent a great deal of time playing with higher that stock SC ratios.
I would start off with no more than 19 psi. In reality I would run closer to 17 and tune from there. Base ignition timing you should set and run thru the rpm band. Meaning, at 17 psi I would run (for example) 8 degrees from peak torque all the way to redline. Log and increase slightly after peak torque in a linear fashion. Once your base boost pressure, fuel and ignition map are made I would save the map and slowly in 1 lb increments increase boost until 23 psi. Again log and see what your knock threshold tendencies have become after 5 psi of boost. This should give you a really good picture on how far to push the system. If you need any help on a base map let me know. I can set something up for you and email it to get you started.
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
CP are making the piston's for me.
And DTM, I have been reading your thread about the high compression motor you were building, the 2.3 I believe, and was very impressed with the results. I am really excited to do this, and appreciate your input.
I have a base map that I believe is going to work, and was going to start around 17/18psi and see what happens. Fortunately I have a very nice tuning spot over here where I can do almost whatever I like without worrying too much.
I am thinking of taking my old E85 map that netted me 407ft-lbs, and killing 2-3* across the entire map, and lowering the boost to the 17-19psi and just start the entire process of re-doing my entire timing map.
What do you think I might be able to max the boost out to with this set-up, assuming I can get the maps as good as my last tune. (Or at least the tune I thought worked extremely well for my car & mods.)
CP are making the piston's for me.
And DTM, I have been reading your thread about the high compression motor you were building, the 2.3 I believe, and was very impressed with the results. I am really excited to do this, and appreciate your input.
I have a base map that I believe is going to work, and was going to start around 17/18psi and see what happens. Fortunately I have a very nice tuning spot over here where I can do almost whatever I like without worrying too much.
I am thinking of taking my old E85 map that netted me 407ft-lbs, and killing 2-3* across the entire map, and lowering the boost to the 17-19psi and just start the entire process of re-doing my entire timing map.
What do you think I might be able to max the boost out to with this set-up, assuming I can get the maps as good as my last tune. (Or at least the tune I thought worked extremely well for my car & mods.)
And DTM, I have been reading your thread about the high compression motor you were building, the 2.3 I believe, and was very impressed with the results. I am really excited to do this, and appreciate your input.
I have a base map that I believe is going to work, and was going to start around 17/18psi and see what happens. Fortunately I have a very nice tuning spot over here where I can do almost whatever I like without worrying too much.
I am thinking of taking my old E85 map that netted me 407ft-lbs, and killing 2-3* across the entire map, and lowering the boost to the 17-19psi and just start the entire process of re-doing my entire timing map.
What do you think I might be able to max the boost out to with this set-up, assuming I can get the maps as good as my last tune. (Or at least the tune I thought worked extremely well for my car & mods.)
My suggestion is to keep the boost as low as possible. the better you are able to maintain boost to redline the faster the car will be. Torque should be as flat as possible. With less boost and more ignition advance, your egts will be VERY low and the car will be extremely efficient and responsive. More boost does not mean more power in many cases. It also depends on your style and driving habits. Personally I prefer a lower boost level and more timing, so that my higher gears are more responsive. This allows the car to rev cleaner and smoother. Torque multiplication is key. The more boost tapers the more momentum you will lose.
just make sure your transition from open to closed loop is steady. Meaning that with more static compression tip in fuel and timing will play a key role to reducing heat and maintaining good combustion efficiency.
Just my two cents.
Trending Topics
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
My suggestion is to keep the boost as low as possible. the better you are able to maintain boost to redline the faster the car will be. Torque should be as flat as possible. With less boost and more ignition advance, your egts will be VERY low and the car will be extremely efficient and responsive. More boost does not mean more power in many cases. It also depends on your style and driving habits. Personally I prefer a lower boost level and more timing, so that my higher gears are more responsive. This allows the car to rev cleaner and smoother. Torque multiplication is key. The more boost tapers the more momentum you will lose.
just make sure your transition from open to closed loop is steady. Meaning that with more static compression tip in fuel and timing will play a key role to reducing heat and maintaining good combustion efficiency.
Just my two cents.
just make sure your transition from open to closed loop is steady. Meaning that with more static compression tip in fuel and timing will play a key role to reducing heat and maintaining good combustion efficiency.
Just my two cents.
Nie post, I will definately reference this when the time comes. I am estimating about two more weeks and the block will be back from the machine shop. Tonight or tomorrow I am pulling it, and sending it off. Hopefully the pistons will be here very soon.
I know that the 2.3 with the 35R has the flow values up there, but with my 2.0 and the IX turbo, it would be awful cool to be able to run say 19psi or less because the turbo will be able to sustain it all the way till redline. With my wastegate rednack contraption it was holding to 24.5 psi at redline, so if I really wanted to, I could hold that up top, but it sounds like I won't need to.
Sounds like you really like your set-up over there. How do you think this set-up of mine would be with a green? Do you think a green is even necesary?
T what are your timing numbers at peak boost and redline (I dont need to know any of the other numbers)?
Just based on that I can tell you, but a 10:1 E85/E98 motor looks almost the same as stock compression.
Just based on that I can tell you, but a 10:1 E85/E98 motor looks almost the same as stock compression.
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
The last Map that I was running was 30.5psi, info pulled from last datalog before motor pull:
3,000 @240 load 3*
3,500 @320 load 2*
4,000 @325 load 3*
4,500 @315 load 4*
...............................
7,000 @245 load 19*
7,500 @240 load 21*
Thread Starter
Evolved Member
iTrader: (6)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,228
Likes: 0
From: Charleston, SC
No way dude. Pistons are still not here yet, thinking another week and a half. Then I have to send it all out to get punched out 0.020" over..
I'm interested to hear some input on the balance shafts and tuning with the now noisy built internals. I'm a few weeks away from my motor rebuild and am trying to decide what to do with the balance shafts. I'd love to remove them but am worried about how well I can get it tuned after that.
