Big Cams Cruise Tune for the Evo 8
Aug 23, 2009, 09:10 PM
#16
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Funny you should say that, my wife tells me the same thing.
Problem is, I prefer to sit in the drivers seat to feel and hear what the car is doing. Drivability tuning takes more than just looking at a log of a pull and tuning the fuel and timing tables (that's the easy part). There are so many more factors to consider when drivabilty is sought.
I come from the old hot rod days when you can set timing and fuel by listening to the way the car ran. Ahh, those were the days. We could sit in the engine bay with a timing light, a few wrenches, a couple screw drivers and tune till our hearts content. Things have certainly changed a lot over the years.
Paul
Problem is, I prefer to sit in the drivers seat to feel and hear what the car is doing. Drivability tuning takes more than just looking at a log of a pull and tuning the fuel and timing tables (that's the easy part). There are so many more factors to consider when drivabilty is sought.
I come from the old hot rod days when you can set timing and fuel by listening to the way the car ran. Ahh, those were the days. We could sit in the engine bay with a timing light, a few wrenches, a couple screw drivers and tune till our hearts content. Things have certainly changed a lot over the years.
Paul
Aug 24, 2009, 06:32 AM
#17
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Jesus dude, I get a pretty decent idle with my kelfords at I think (and I could be off, I haven't looked at that part of the timing map in a while) 12*. It doesn't lope hardly at all with the a/c on, and it sounds a little bit mean with the a/c off. I prefer it that way, it keeps people off their toes.
yeah I prefer to tune the same way. I spent a looooot of time on my cruise areas (and then again adjusting the skew values for the afm) back when the car had the hks 264/272 cams in it, and thank god most of that is still good with the kelfords. Lets me be a bit lazier and just tune the power curve now 
Driveability tuning does take forever though, I spent 3 hours on a dyno saturday with a volvo starting from scratch, tuning a megasquirt (mustang dyno ftw). I'm sure there are a few holes in the tune somewhere, but you can actually run the car through most of the usable parts of the map on a loading dyno. It would have taken 6 hours on a dynojet and we still would have had to go street tuning after the fact.
Funny you should say that, my wife tells me the same thing.
Problem is, I prefer to sit in the drivers seat to feel and hear what the car is doing. Drivability tuning takes more than just looking at a log of a pull and tuning the fuel and timing tables (that's the easy part). There are so many more factors to consider when drivabilty is sought.
I come from the old hot rod days when you can set timing and fuel by listening to the way the car ran. Ahh, those were the days. We could sit in the engine bay with a timing light, a few wrenches, a couple screw drivers and tune till our hearts content. Things have certainly changed a lot over the years.
Paul
Problem is, I prefer to sit in the drivers seat to feel and hear what the car is doing. Drivability tuning takes more than just looking at a log of a pull and tuning the fuel and timing tables (that's the easy part). There are so many more factors to consider when drivabilty is sought.
I come from the old hot rod days when you can set timing and fuel by listening to the way the car ran. Ahh, those were the days. We could sit in the engine bay with a timing light, a few wrenches, a couple screw drivers and tune till our hearts content. Things have certainly changed a lot over the years.
Paul
Driveability tuning does take forever though, I spent 3 hours on a dyno saturday with a volvo starting from scratch, tuning a megasquirt (mustang dyno ftw). I'm sure there are a few holes in the tune somewhere, but you can actually run the car through most of the usable parts of the map on a loading dyno. It would have taken 6 hours on a dynojet and we still would have had to go street tuning after the fact.
Aug 24, 2009, 01:07 PM
#19
Jesus dude, I get a pretty decent idle with my kelfords at I think (and I could be off, I haven't looked at that part of the timing map in a while) 12*. It doesn't lope hardly at all with the a/c on, and it sounds a little bit mean with the a/c off. I prefer it that way, it keeps people off their toes.
Aug 24, 2009, 04:16 PM
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smoother idle and it pulls more vacuum at idle. I didn't have a p0300 with higher idle timing, in fact I don't know that my car ever had the 0300 symptoms, but I didn't want to mess with it.
Aug 24, 2009, 08:09 PM
#23
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Idle timing will be a situation of diminishing returns. As you continue to increase the timing you will smooth idle characteristics to a certain point. Then all you will do is cause and increase in EGT without changing idle stability.
I noticed that the stock cams and stock settings are 5* and 850ish rpm. As you raise rpm to compensate for the big cams, timing must also be increased. Longer duration cams usually require a bit more timing that shorter. Higher lift cams usually don't like too much timing.
In my case....Revolver cams...I have timing set at 9 degrees and idle set to 1070 rpm. My car idles at 37Hz and in the 40 load cell. I am pulling 10 inHg of vacuum.
Stock form is 19inHg at 18Hz in the 20 load cell.
So what you look to try to do is increase vacuum at idle to help the car maintain best idle characteristics.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
I noticed that the stock cams and stock settings are 5* and 850ish rpm. As you raise rpm to compensate for the big cams, timing must also be increased. Longer duration cams usually require a bit more timing that shorter. Higher lift cams usually don't like too much timing.
In my case....Revolver cams...I have timing set at 9 degrees and idle set to 1070 rpm. My car idles at 37Hz and in the 40 load cell. I am pulling 10 inHg of vacuum.
Stock form is 19inHg at 18Hz in the 20 load cell.
So what you look to try to do is increase vacuum at idle to help the car maintain best idle characteristics.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
Aug 24, 2009, 08:18 PM
#24
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Idle timing will be a situation of diminishing returns. As you continue to increase the timing you will smooth idle characteristics to a certain point. Then all you will do is cause and increase in EGT without changing idle stability.
I noticed that the stock cams and stock settings are 5* and 850ish rpm. As you raise rpm to compensate for the big cams, timing must also be increased. Longer duration cams usually require a bit more timing that shorter. Higher lift cams usually don't like too much timing.
In my case....Revolver cams...I have timing set at 9 degrees and idle set to 1070 rpm. My car idles at 37Hz and in the 40 load cell. I am pulling 10 inHg of vacuum.
Stock form is 19inHg at 18Hz in the 20 load cell.
So what you look to try to do is increase vacuum at idle to help the car maintain best idle characteristics.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
I noticed that the stock cams and stock settings are 5* and 850ish rpm. As you raise rpm to compensate for the big cams, timing must also be increased. Longer duration cams usually require a bit more timing that shorter. Higher lift cams usually don't like too much timing.
In my case....Revolver cams...I have timing set at 9 degrees and idle set to 1070 rpm. My car idles at 37Hz and in the 40 load cell. I am pulling 10 inHg of vacuum.
Stock form is 19inHg at 18Hz in the 20 load cell.
So what you look to try to do is increase vacuum at idle to help the car maintain best idle characteristics.
Hope I didn't confuse anyone.
and since I'm back @ home I can look at my map and see exactly what kind of idle timing I've got. It is...
12 degrees. its scary the things you remember sometimes
Aug 25, 2009, 07:26 AM
#25
Jesus dude, I get a pretty decent idle with my kelfords at I think (and I could be off, I haven't looked at that part of the timing map in a while) 12*. It doesn't lope hardly at all with the a/c on, and it sounds a little bit mean with the a/c off. I prefer it that way, it keeps people off their toes.
hmmmm.....? Can you give me some instite please?
12deg at idle works for me with gsc2 's , set of plug leads cured my po300
TIming is at 7*, I also Scaled the MAF a little and increased the cells in the MAF Scaling table for the idle just alittle. I am still haveing some weird issues.
Did any one else scale their MAF for this?
Any recommended best settings to start off with on a 94170015 ROM ID?
Aug 25, 2009, 07:32 AM
#26
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MAF scaling really isn't recommended unless you change your intake pipe. When you scale the MAF you are bringing it back into factory readings in the terms of airflow frequency.
As for your question on timing....set your lowest idle settings to 950ish (generally a good place to start with big cams...sometimes more is needed). Then increase the cells in the stock map (5*) to about 7* and test it. Continue incresing it and testing it until you see vacuum increase. Once you see vacuum increase you can usually get about a degree or two more and that is about it. The goal is to get the idle to remain steady and not hunt.
As for your question on timing....set your lowest idle settings to 950ish (generally a good place to start with big cams...sometimes more is needed). Then increase the cells in the stock map (5*) to about 7* and test it. Continue incresing it and testing it until you see vacuum increase. Once you see vacuum increase you can usually get about a degree or two more and that is about it. The goal is to get the idle to remain steady and not hunt.
Aug 25, 2009, 07:48 AM
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Im on the 94170015 map, started with 8*, and then we dropped it 7*...
hmmmm.....? Can you give me some instite please?
TIming is at 7*, I also Scaled the MAF a little and increased the cells in the MAF Scaling table for the idle just alittle. I am still haveing some weird issues.
Did any one else scale their MAF for this?
Any recommended best settings to start off with on a 94170015 ROM ID?
hmmmm.....? Can you give me some instite please?
TIming is at 7*, I also Scaled the MAF a little and increased the cells in the MAF Scaling table for the idle just alittle. I am still haveing some weird issues.
Did any one else scale their MAF for this?
Any recommended best settings to start off with on a 94170015 ROM ID?
Applaudd's suggestions should get it sorted out for you.
Aug 25, 2009, 05:16 PM
#28
So how does one tune the idle? There was a write up about it, stating you had to adjust your MAF scaling to do so?
My fuel trims want 8% addition in the LOW LTFT, it wants 4% reduction roughly in the MID LTFT...
If I do this, I get a steeper rise at low end, and then go to a flat line in the mid, and then a steep incline for the high end...
Doesn't make sence....
What do you recommend for this?
Thanks in advance.
My fuel trims want 8% addition in the LOW LTFT, it wants 4% reduction roughly in the MID LTFT...
If I do this, I get a steeper rise at low end, and then go to a flat line in the mid, and then a steep incline for the high end...
Doesn't make sence....
What do you recommend for this?
Thanks in advance.
Last edited by Raceghost; Aug 25, 2009 at 06:01 PM.
Aug 25, 2009, 09:48 PM
#29
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So how does one tune the idle? There was a write up about it, stating you had to adjust your MAF scaling to do so?
My fuel trims want 8% addition in the LOW LTFT, it wants 4% reduction roughly in the MID LTFT...
If I do this, I get a steeper rise at low end, and then go to a flat line in the mid, and then a steep incline for the high end...
Doesn't make sence....
What do you recommend for this?
Thanks in advance.
My fuel trims want 8% addition in the LOW LTFT, it wants 4% reduction roughly in the MID LTFT...
If I do this, I get a steeper rise at low end, and then go to a flat line in the mid, and then a steep incline for the high end...
Doesn't make sence....
What do you recommend for this?
Thanks in advance.
Sounds like you need to change your "injector scaling" to get the low and mid LTFTs to be both positive or negative. Once that happens, you need to work on the latencies to draw them back to both + or both - 5%
If the above method does not work or you cannot get them close enough....you need to scale your MAF.
MAF scaling has what I call a fuel adder table. This is the "MAF Compensation" table. Then there is a Hz table "Airflow/Hz Raw Scaling". With the help of others on here they found that the MAF compensation table should actually be called the "MAF Adjustment" table and that the scaling for the Data Values should not be uint8 but rather percent (128).
<scaling name="Percent (128)" units="%" toexpr="x/1.28" frexpr="x*1.28" format="%.0f" min="0" max="100" inc="1" storagetype="uint8" endian="big"/>
Add the above scaling to your evo base xml. Then open the Maf compensation table and change the Data values scaling to percent (128). In doing so you will see that the MAF Compensation table is more of a % fuel adder table. Thus the name change to "MAF Adjustment"
I hope you can follow so far.
Now once you change the table you can use it to add or subtract fuel from your LTFTs. Keep in mind that a 1 point change on the "MAF adjustment" table accounts to almost 10% on the LTFTs, and that the adjustment will affect all LTFTs and the STFT.
OK so with a lot of tinkering we can get the fuel trims to settle. Now you are probably wondering "How do I get my LTFT Low to start to adjust?". The trick here is to get the MAF Hz low enough for the LTFT Low to do it's thing. There is a new table called "Closed Loop-LT Trim Control". Opening up this will reveal what Hz value you need to be reading for the various LTFTs to start to adjust. Do a search on here for the table if you don't have it.
Basically, you need to get the MAF Hz at idle to be less that 43Hz for the LTFT low to adjust. This is where the MAF scaling comes into effect. By adjusting the load zones and below that you idle in you can change the Hz the MAF sees at idle. Tweek them until you get the Hz down below 43 Hz. You need to ensure that the curve of the MAF is smooth too though. There shouldn't be any peaks and valleys in the curve at all.
Oh, one more thing. If your LTFT Low isn't adjusting currently. I recommend you start with MAF Hz scaling. Then once you start to see the LTFT low make some adjustments....move on to the Injector stuff.
Well....there you have it. Let the mass confusion begin.
Paul
Aug 26, 2009, 12:04 AM
#30
Paul, right with you...
I have actualy done all the scaling, and have a very smoth nice elyptical curve. I'm idling at 37.5 HZ. It starts at 50, then drops to like 40 something, and then settles once it it is warm to the 37.5. So I do the 8 percent math thing, and adjust it, and realize that if I try to adjust the MID's, the line will go flat...
So on to your New field or tabeles,
I have a MAF Scaling, and a MAF Smoothing Table. I changed the MAF smoothing table utilizing the snipit of code you wrote here, and I have a wierd field now. On the left it says load (%) and on the right it states uints... Scaling seems to be off, it has 0 then 192, then 0, then 1, then 0, then 2...etc as it progresses up, this is int he % load column.
So i think i am changing the wrong column. Where do I find the MAF Compensation Table?
EDIT:Started with map 96420011, tried to do all the PSI Based Boost control/ECU based, and tune that one...close, but not close enough...
Switched to the 94170015 map and have had better success. The Injector scaling has not changed from map to map, am I missing something? They both say 513... I thought that was good for stock injectors? I was told I didn't need to upgrade to go to the Kelford's...? I am not seeing 100% IJDC in the logs...
How would injector scaling get off? I have not adjusted anything to effect the injector scalings I believe. I first tried to set the idle utilizing the MAF scaling in the other thread I have spoken about before. I then returned it back to stock. While it is at stock, it is giving me the before mentioned "wanted" adjustments. +8% @ idle, -3/-4% at cruz...
Should I play with MAF Scaling first or should I try to find your MAF Compensation table and adjust that?
EDIT 2:
I am currently running at stable 12-14 ing/hg on the boost guage, and running -5 max on ecuflash logs...? Curious if I have a setting off(I followed MFRED's deffinititions to the tee for the addition of the sensor and calibration in ECU flash, must be something the EVO Scan data file)...? I have the timing at 11* and it seems ok...everyhing else is registering the same in ecu flash, only the map sensor is registering different.
What do you think of those settings?
Thanks for any direction.
Also, I did not meen to hijack this thread, i was asking questions pertaining to the OP question. Thanks again for any help, and hope this helps the original poster.
I have actualy done all the scaling, and have a very smoth nice elyptical curve. I'm idling at 37.5 HZ. It starts at 50, then drops to like 40 something, and then settles once it it is warm to the 37.5. So I do the 8 percent math thing, and adjust it, and realize that if I try to adjust the MID's, the line will go flat...
So on to your New field or tabeles,
I have a MAF Scaling, and a MAF Smoothing Table. I changed the MAF smoothing table utilizing the snipit of code you wrote here, and I have a wierd field now. On the left it says load (%) and on the right it states uints... Scaling seems to be off, it has 0 then 192, then 0, then 1, then 0, then 2...etc as it progresses up, this is int he % load column.
So i think i am changing the wrong column. Where do I find the MAF Compensation Table?
EDIT:Started with map 96420011, tried to do all the PSI Based Boost control/ECU based, and tune that one...close, but not close enough...
Switched to the 94170015 map and have had better success. The Injector scaling has not changed from map to map, am I missing something? They both say 513... I thought that was good for stock injectors? I was told I didn't need to upgrade to go to the Kelford's...? I am not seeing 100% IJDC in the logs...
How would injector scaling get off? I have not adjusted anything to effect the injector scalings I believe. I first tried to set the idle utilizing the MAF scaling in the other thread I have spoken about before. I then returned it back to stock. While it is at stock, it is giving me the before mentioned "wanted" adjustments. +8% @ idle, -3/-4% at cruz...
Should I play with MAF Scaling first or should I try to find your MAF Compensation table and adjust that?
EDIT 2:
The kelfords are pretty close to the same on my car. I was able to eek out around 12-13inHg with the a/c off, 9-10 with the a/c on, similar load and rpm values.
What do you think of those settings?
Thanks for any direction.
Also, I did not meen to hijack this thread, i was asking questions pertaining to the OP question. Thanks again for any help, and hope this helps the original poster.
Last edited by Raceghost; Aug 26, 2009 at 12:37 AM.