Agressive E85 ignition timing
A friend just about found himself in this same situation. He went over to E85 and was pouring on the timing because it was “knock free.” He followed the "How to tune an EVO" thread and that's where he ended up on his tune. He told me how much timing he was running and I explained to him the problem with what he was doing. Long story short, he's running considerably less timing now and the car is faster than ever.
Not necessasarily what boost, more what load is run (in which boost is a factor). But that is obvious. We are *assuming* all of this so all of these posts aren't 2 pages long.
It also depends on what RPM, what parts are on the car, etc etc. Remember, these are guidelines, after that is where knowledge and experience come in
.
It also depends on what RPM, what parts are on the car, etc etc. Remember, these are guidelines, after that is where knowledge and experience come in
.It just seemed strange that boost (or load) wasn't mentioned at all, but then I guess nobody is going to run E85 without intention to carry things close to the limit.
Later on he did post his timing map though so the timing vs. load could be seen.
I guess people are silly enough to treat all "gasoline" the same. I will have to update the thread to tell them that E85 is totally different than 91 octane gas. I think it was pretty obvious that I was writing about 91 octane gas. It seems that people do not read these days
On topic: I have been subscribed to this thread from the beginning, and it certainly has been an interesting read.
Here is what I am running..... I know somethings are weird, like the low RPM high load parts.... I based those numbers of the trends from the load lines...... I started playing with this then had surgery, now Im back to playing again. I dont like the theory " you never reach those cells, so dont worry about it... I like everything to be nice and smooth so I can I deal with the over all trend of the line rather than have a bunch of peaks and valleys....
Last edited by denver; Sep 9, 2009 at 12:32 PM.
I'm betting it's either a rod bearing or main bearing. Pretty simple "rough evaluation" method to check if it's a rod/main bearing knock is to blip the throttle to get the revs accelerate up to about 3000 RPM then immediately fall back to idle. As the motor accelerates, it will typically be pretty quiet. As the engine speed peaks, you'll get a loud pop then as the engine slows back down, it will knock very noticeably.
I brought micrometers and plastigage home from work so I'm going to see if anything is wildly out of spec. If not, I'm going to just try bearings to avoid having to pull the head. I feel like I can get away with this because of how totally even everything was. Oil or no oil compression was within 5 PSI on a room temperature engine. Also, I'm cheap (read: broke). I'll test again once everything's warm and evalutate whether I think I need rings. I did plan on doing a rebuild at 100K miles anyway, which I still plan on doing anyway
I can't say enough how much help everyone's been and hopefully people can learn from my mistakes.
With all this said, though, I'd like to point out that I've been tuning this car for over a year total. Gas, E85, injectors, BCS, all done by me. I know better than to stare at the knock sensor, I know better than to start my tuning pulls at 4K rpm and expect good results. I have been lurking in the ECUflash forum for over two years, reading almost every thread that looks interesting. I think I just got careless because of a dying laptop battery and a lack of patience.
With all this said, though, I'd like to point out that I've been tuning this car for over a year total. Gas, E85, injectors, BCS, all done by me. I know better than to stare at the knock sensor, I know better than to start my tuning pulls at 4K rpm and expect good results. I have been lurking in the ECUflash forum for over two years, reading almost every thread that looks interesting. I think I just got careless because of a dying laptop battery and a lack of patience.
Unfortunately you cannot guarantee that people will read (or comprehend) most of what is discussed about the long and arduous process of tuning. It takes a lot of research and a lot of patience, which doesn't necessarily fit in with the "go fast" mentality that we all have.
On topic: I have been subscribed to this thread from the beginning, and it certainly has been an interesting read.
On topic: I have been subscribed to this thread from the beginning, and it certainly has been an interesting read.
Ya but at least if they do read it then they have the most current and "generally" the best information from the tuning community on here.
THUB thats great and all but its a fact that you were running way too much timing. And its more then likely what lead to your engine failure. I have never ONCE on here seen someone post a timing map for e85 with that much timing.
It happens. It's called 'learning.'
I think A LOT of people in the 4G63 world think tuning is a lot more easy then it really is. Lucky for them, the 4G63 is one of the most resilient and detonation tolerant motors out there. Many of them would be spreading engine parts all over the road if they went to any other engine platform out there.
I sat in the same boat years ago until I started seeing Honda and Subaru friends breaking pistons and bending rods. I looked at their logs and tuning and was shocked to see that I’ve seen similar conditions in my motor and yet my **** stayed together and theirs didn’t. It completely changed my perspective and approach to tuning. I had that same old BS mentality of "leave it rich and advance the timing until it knocks, then back it off a degree" mentality that is so popular in the 4G63 community until that time.
I think A LOT of people in the 4G63 world think tuning is a lot more easy then it really is. Lucky for them, the 4G63 is one of the most resilient and detonation tolerant motors out there. Many of them would be spreading engine parts all over the road if they went to any other engine platform out there.
I sat in the same boat years ago until I started seeing Honda and Subaru friends breaking pistons and bending rods. I looked at their logs and tuning and was shocked to see that I’ve seen similar conditions in my motor and yet my **** stayed together and theirs didn’t. It completely changed my perspective and approach to tuning. I had that same old BS mentality of "leave it rich and advance the timing until it knocks, then back it off a degree" mentality that is so popular in the 4G63 community until that time.
With all this said, though, I'd like to point out that I've been tuning this car for over a year total. Gas, E85, injectors, BCS, all done by me. I know better than to stare at the knock sensor, I know better than to start my tuning pulls at 4K rpm and expect good results. I have been lurking in the ECUflash forum for over two years, reading almost every thread that looks interesting. I think I just got careless because of a dying laptop battery and a lack of patience.
Carnage pics aren't really that impressive. One bearing is destructified, everything else looks near new. I haven't pulled the head yet, though so If I find out that my pistons are held together by the rings or something ridiculous, I'll post pics. This won't be for at least a week.
Warp9 That map is exactly what my previously healthy Evo was running when I blew it up. Do yourself a favor and don't use it. I'm still not totally sold on the idea that it was the sole responsibility of the tune that did it, (80,000 miles of beating had to have some influence) but let's not try and find out.