Separate thread as I wanted to see what you guys were thinking about the concept of 3d vs 2d VE maps, as the 3d SD thread is so long now I can't easily tell what you're all thinking.

Reason being is that on the R35 GTR I've just added a speed density patch and it uses a 16*16 VE table with lookups of MAP and RPM. The biggest gradient of VE is just off idle. However, even with logging that includes full time closed loop lambda fuel trims which I can plot over the VE table, I miss tuning the old 2 x 2d RPM VE and MAP VE tables from the Evo as it was easy to do live rather than study logs afterwards, and it was much easier to make smooth.

I find I have a lot of wasted real estate with a 16*16 VE map and am wondering about reusing my old 2 x 2d RPM VE and MAP VE tables!

Maybe I've just got lazy as a tuner.

Thoughts?

 

Hope all is going well, John!

Your 2D maps were a genius way of implementing SD on the Evo and I can't thank you enough for your efforts. It is very simple and works very well.

But, I think that the 3D map has a couple of big advantages as well. The first is that it will enable fine tuning small individual areas of the map a bit quicker and easier than using the 2D tables. Secondly, in conjunction with the first point, it will enable the 'everyday' tuner to better visualize how to tune the VE of his particular setup.

I think the most difficult part and biggest disconnect of the 2D maps was for people to realize that they were creating a 3D map from the 2D tables and how adjustments in each of the 2D tables were affecting the overall 3D map. Programs like LogWorks and Excel helped a ton, but I think it was still difficult for some people to fine tune.

The 3D map, while longer to completely fine tune due to enhanced resolution, is more intuitive to the everyday tuner. They can easily say...I'm at this map and this RPM and I need a VE change.

All in all, there are advantages to both ways, but I like the 3D map. I think it's a step in the right direction. And for the more advanced tuners, it definitely gives better control over the VE tuning. And with ziad running with your LiveMap app and creating autotune, etc, it will only get easier. BTW, I still think DMA/LiveMap is one of the best mods ever to the Evo ROM and again, can't thank you enough for your efforts.

 

Thanks Eric. It seems from your feedback and others that virtually everyone except me prefers 3d and I can certainly appreciate why.

Always difficult to know how bumpy or smooth to make the 3d tables as well, sometimes I'm guilty of imposing a smoothness that isn't really there. The real world is not as smooth as I would like it to be always. Although I think most tuners need to hear the opposite, that the real world is smoother than some of their maps

I welcome further opinions. Dissenters will be shot if I don't agree

 

I have tried the 3D recently and my main complaint is setup time. The x2 2D maps are simple and effective and I can make the 3D change in the main fuel map as long as everything else is close.

John,

There is opensource for the VR motor? Do you happen to have a link

thanks

Aaron

 

http://www.cobbtuning.com/categories/?id=3848

 

The 3d maps are awesome and provide new definition of fine tuning, but the 2d tables worked very well in the right hands.

We appreciate your efforts on these forums and look forward to all of your developments!!

 

Thought so, wanted to check for ETS' latest purchase. Good stuff either way.

aaron

 

Thank you Sir! Love the old 2D tables.

Just as extcited about the 3D VE tables!

 

same really the 2D were nice and was relatively simple to setup and get everything nice, I then used these values to setup the 3D and its worked out a smooth transition just now with the 3D it gives a better fine tune I guess all though takes time to get perfect, lucky I log everytime I get in the car so am always making little adjustments

thanks for all the work you've done

 

Hey John, long time no hear hope you are well.

You probably remember the first time I used your patched rom on a big spec car, you had a lot of phone calls! The hardest part was getting the low load transition areas correct, on a standard car this never proved to be a problem, but the minute very aggressive cams and a low idle vacuum was introduced, things became much harder to fine tune.

I did persist with my own car for a long time, and had everything almost perfect apart from a small area at very low load and coming out of vacuum. Finally conceded and went for an aftermarket ECU which has one distinct advantage, the software designed to tune it has a much better interface which make setup easier and time taken shorter.

Both 2D and 3D tables provided the same end result, provided you understand how and what to adjust. If the user interface was improved, say something like the autotune feature some makes use, it would make life much easier to the average man to tune.

 

I used the same method as Aaron, got the general set up in the 2D and did the smaller adjustments in the main fuel map. Given my relative lack of experience tuning, compared to the other posters, the 2D tables were pretty easy to set up. I also ran full time open loop ( idle excepted), unfortunately the cruise IPW jitters prevented me adopting SD fully, so went back to MAF. You don't fancy looking at that issue by any chance .......?

 

I think I'm sticking with 3d as despite the extra effort in mapping it, it can only give more control. With the commercial backing, it will have a nice user interface to realtime tune it rather than some nasty thing I write in visual basic.

IPW jitters I thought someone on here had fixed? The main limit to solving that was time, and at the time, specifically having an example of an Evo 7 and Evo 8 I could play with for a few months. They did something weird that caused jitters that I never got on my Evo 9.

Might be easier to use a 9 ECU to fix it?

 

I'll be working on it despite the lack of an evo 8 i can actually play with

I'm sure it will be something simple that is the root cause.

 

I have a buddy leaving his SD Evo8 at the shop for a week and I can't wait to finally start messing with this stuff. I will definitely give my feedback when I can. Like everyone said already...thanks a million for your contributions!

 

John,
When I was looking at SD on the E5/6 recently and for the SD code I've written for my E3, I produced an Excel spreadsheet that meant if you logged your MAF, RPM and MAP and then imported the log into the s/sheet it would then produce a 3D VE table for you to use as a starting point.

It makes it a lot easier than having to write one from scratch.

Let me see if I can find it when I get home later and I'll post it up.

Andy