2.3L, 10:1 CR Tuning Advice Needed
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From: The Colony, TX
making some progress. the butt dyno agrees with virtual dyno. but i did get 4 counts of knock at about 3k so that pulled some timing at peak boost. its probably phantom though right? everyone says e85 doesnt knock...
Last edited by TurboTylerIX; May 30, 2014 at 08:31 AM.
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From: Springfield, MO
Completely ignore knock on E85. You're still hitting really low timing for peak tq/load. Try and hit 2-3 in that area. Is it an 8 or 9 head?
When you quit gaining tq with timing then you know you've gone past mbt.
When you quit gaining tq with timing then you know you've gone past mbt.
Last edited by jeffbeagley; May 30, 2014 at 01:19 PM.
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ok cool thanks, its a IX head. are you sure about 2-3* at peak? I thought thats the same amount of timing that guys with 9:1 compression would run on a IX? would that not be too much for 10:1? I guess I'll see by watching MBT as I go...
Here's my advice you. Protect your investment with either of the options below.
Option 1: Put it on a dyno. You're going to be chasing your tail and always wondering if you rely on the vd for tuning e85
Option 2: If you can't rent a dyno, or don't want to, then give it a solid pump gas tune and work from that. Run the non ethanol timing from peak load to 5k, and then ramp up the timing to around 3* more than pump out the top. It'll help keep your investment safe and happy.
Also, I'd run 11.5afr around peak load/torque, and gradually lean it out up top.
One thing I haven't seen anyone ask is, what does your mivec map look like?
Option 1: Put it on a dyno. You're going to be chasing your tail and always wondering if you rely on the vd for tuning e85
Option 2: If you can't rent a dyno, or don't want to, then give it a solid pump gas tune and work from that. Run the non ethanol timing from peak load to 5k, and then ramp up the timing to around 3* more than pump out the top. It'll help keep your investment safe and happy.
Also, I'd run 11.5afr around peak load/torque, and gradually lean it out up top.
One thing I haven't seen anyone ask is, what does your mivec map look like?
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From: The Colony, TX
Here's my advice you. Protect your investment with either of the options below.
Option 1: Put it on a dyno. You're going to be chasing your tail and always wondering if you rely on the vd for tuning e85
Option 2: If you can't rent a dyno, or don't want to, then give it a solid pump gas tune and work from that. Run the non ethanol timing from peak load to 5k, and then ramp up the timing to around 3* more than pump out the top. It'll help keep your investment safe and happy.
Also, I'd run 11.5afr around peak load/torque, and gradually lean it out up top.
One thing I haven't seen anyone ask is, what does your mivec map look like?
Option 1: Put it on a dyno. You're going to be chasing your tail and always wondering if you rely on the vd for tuning e85
Option 2: If you can't rent a dyno, or don't want to, then give it a solid pump gas tune and work from that. Run the non ethanol timing from peak load to 5k, and then ramp up the timing to around 3* more than pump out the top. It'll help keep your investment safe and happy.
Also, I'd run 11.5afr around peak load/torque, and gradually lean it out up top.
One thing I haven't seen anyone ask is, what does your mivec map look like?
Whats the reasoning for 11.5 at peak load?
when you say 3* more than pump you probably mean 93 right? my pump here is CA 91. also, when you say 3* more than pump...well there is no way that I can run the same boost (30psi) that I am now... I could probably only run like 22psi on CA 91 with this 10:1 motor. so 3* more than pump at 22 psi?
My mivec is just the JDM RS basically.
In my experience with E85, an 11.5afr at peak yields more torque than a leaner afr would.
Yes I was referring to 93, I keep forgetting about the lovely 91 you guys get in Cali.
I would do a pump tune for a flat 22psi to determine how much timing you can realistically run out the top (since 22psi is all you'll be able to hold on the stock turbo up top anyway). I would run 1* at peak load, and ramp smoothly to 5* by 5k. Since you're on 91, I'd set timing 4* higher than pump out the top, and interpolate from 5k to 7.5k.
Also, you may want to look at posts 731 - 733 in this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...tuning-49.html
for some ideas on your mivec map. With S2's you'll want to take a look at some changes from the jdm rs map.
But.... the best thing to do is to really strap it to a dyno as VD is very difficult to get repeatable results when trying to find MBT on ethanol fuels.
Yes I was referring to 93, I keep forgetting about the lovely 91 you guys get in Cali.
I would do a pump tune for a flat 22psi to determine how much timing you can realistically run out the top (since 22psi is all you'll be able to hold on the stock turbo up top anyway). I would run 1* at peak load, and ramp smoothly to 5* by 5k. Since you're on 91, I'd set timing 4* higher than pump out the top, and interpolate from 5k to 7.5k.
Also, you may want to look at posts 731 - 733 in this thread: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...tuning-49.html
for some ideas on your mivec map. With S2's you'll want to take a look at some changes from the jdm rs map.
But.... the best thing to do is to really strap it to a dyno as VD is very difficult to get repeatable results when trying to find MBT on ethanol fuels.
On 2.0L with stock comp, on E85, stock turbo, cams... average timing would be 2-4* at 3500 and ramp it up slowly to 5500 and then 18-21 out the top. That's a couple degrees from MBT and average timing numbers for about 30+ Evo 9's I've tuned on E85 on a Mustang dyno.
If you want to send me some logs, I'd be happy to give some input. send me a PM if you wish.
If you want to send me some logs, I'd be happy to give some input. send me a PM if you wish.
Here is a log from a 2.3L, E85, CBRD BBKB, Everything ported.
This car was happy with timing, this log was right about MBT and I dialed it back a degree or two after this.
This was also back before load clip was found. I'd say this was around 400 load at peak too. Boost @ 33-34psi peak
Hope this helps
This car was happy with timing, this log was right about MBT and I dialed it back a degree or two after this.
This was also back before load clip was found. I'd say this was around 400 load at peak too. Boost @ 33-34psi peak
Code:
RPM TimingAdv WideBandAF KnockSum Load1B 3250 8 12.9 0 265.9375 3312.5 7 12.7 0 292.5 3468.75 6 12.6 0 318.125 3562.5 6 12.4 0 342.8125 3656.25 5 12.2 0 359.0625 3781.25 5 11.9 0 376.875 3906.25 5 11.6 0 379.6875 4125 6 11.8 0 379.6875 4281.25 6 12.1 0 379.6875 4406.25 6 12.2 0 379.6875 4562.5 7 12.1 0 379.6875 4718.75 8 11.8 0 379.6875 4812.5 9 11.8 0 379.6875 4937.5 10 11.8 0 379.0625 5062.5 10 11.8 0 379.6875 5250 10 11.5 1 379.6875 5375 11 11.5 1 379.6875 5500 13 11.6 0 379.375 5687.5 14 11.5 0 377.1875 5781.25 14 11.5 0 378.4375 5875 15 11.6 0 378.4375 6000 15 11.6 0 373.4375 6156.25 17 11.7 0 363.4375 6250 17 11.8 0 355.9375 6375 18 11.8 0 349.6875 6531.25 18 11.9 0 346.875 6625 18 11.9 0 344.375 6718.75 18 11.9 0 343.4375 6812.5 19 11.9 0 340 6937.5 19 12 0 336.875 7031.25 19 12 0 333.75 7093.75 19 12.1 0 331.25 7218.75 19 12 0 327.1875 7312.5 20 12 0 322.5 7375 20 12 0 320.3125 7437.5 20 12 0 316.25 7500 20 12 0 313.125 7625 20 12 0 308.75 7687.5 21 12.1 0 305.625 7781.25 21 12.2 0 301.25
Hope this helps
Here is a 2.4L 10:1 CR, E85, OG FPgreen, cossy cams, ported. This one is a little bit more average for timing and higher comp than the above example.
Code:
RPM TimingAdv JDMMAP WideBandAF KnockSum 2968.75 4 16.64867 12.8 0 3000 4 17.80949 12.7 0 3062.5 4 19.35725 12.7 0 3093.75 3 20.13113 12.6 0 3156.25 3 22.06583 12.6 0 3218.75 2 23.42012 12.6 0 3250 1 26.1287 12.6 0 3343.75 1 27.86993 12.5 0 3375 2 29.61116 12.5 0 3437.5 2 31.15892 12.4 0 3531.25 2 31.73933 12.3 0 3625 2 32.51321 12.3 0 3656.25 3 32.51321 12.4 0 3750 3 32.51321 12.3 0 3812.5 3 32.70668 12.3 0 3875 3 32.70668 12.2 0 3968.75 3 32.70668 12.2 0 4031.25 3 32.70668 12.2 0 4093.75 3 32.70668 12.3 0 4156.25 4 32.31974 12.3 0 4250 4 32.12627 12.2 0 4312.5 4 31.73933 12.1 0 4375 3 31.73933 12.1 1 4406.25 3 31.15892 12.1 1 4468.75 3 30.57851 12.2 1 4562.5 4 29.9981 12.2 1 4593.75 4 29.80463 12.2 1 4687.5 5 28.83728 12.2 1 4750 5 29.03075 12.2 1 4781.25 5 28.25687 12.2 0 4843.75 6 27.86993 12.2 0 4937.5 7 27.09605 12.2 0 4968.75 7 26.90258 12.2 0 5000 7 26.90258 12.2 0 5093.75 7 25.93523 12.2 0 5156.25 8 25.93523 12.1 0 5187.5 8 25.54829 12.2 0 5250 8 25.35482 12.1 0 5312.5 9 24.96788 12.1 0 5343.75 9 24.77441 12.1 0 5406.25 10 24.38747 12.1 0 5468.75 10 24.38747 12.1 0 5500 10 24.194 12.1 0 5562.5 10 23.61359 12.1 0 5625 10 23.61359 12 0 5656.25 10 23.42012 12 0 5718.75 10 23.22665 12 0 5750 11 22.83971 11.9 0 5812.5 12 23.22665 12 0 5843.75 12 22.83971 12 0 5906.25 12 22.45277 11.9 0 5937.5 12 22.83971 11.9 0 6000 12 22.83971 12 0 6031.25 13 22.45277 12 0 6093.75 13 21.87236 12.1 0 6125 13 21.67889 12.1 0 6156.25 13 22.2593 12.1 0 6218.75 13 21.09848 12.1 0 6250 13 21.67889 12.1 0 6312.5 14 21.67889 12.1 0 6343.75 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6375 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6406.25 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6468.75 14 21.29195 12.1 0 6500 14 20.71154 12.1 0 6531.25 14 20.71154 12 0 6593.75 14 20.71154 12 0 6625 15 20.71154 12 0 6656.25 15 20.3246 12 0 6687.5 15 20.13113 11.9 0 6718.75 15 20.13113 11.9 0 6781.25 16 19.93766 11.9 0 6812.5 16 19.74419 11.9 0 6843.75 16 19.55072 11.9 0 6875 17 19.74419 11.9 0 6906.25 17 19.35725 11.9 0 6937.5 17 19.55072 11.9 0 6968.75 17 19.16378 11.9 0
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
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From: The Colony, TX
Here is a 2.4L 10:1 CR, E85, OG FPgreen, cossy cams, ported. This one is a little bit more average for timing and higher comp than the above example.
Code:
RPM TimingAdv JDMMAP WideBandAF KnockSum 2968.75 4 16.64867 12.8 0 3000 4 17.80949 12.7 0 3062.5 4 19.35725 12.7 0 3093.75 3 20.13113 12.6 0 3156.25 3 22.06583 12.6 0 3218.75 2 23.42012 12.6 0 3250 1 26.1287 12.6 0 3343.75 1 27.86993 12.5 0 3375 2 29.61116 12.5 0 3437.5 2 31.15892 12.4 0 3531.25 2 31.73933 12.3 0 3625 2 32.51321 12.3 0 3656.25 3 32.51321 12.4 0 3750 3 32.51321 12.3 0 3812.5 3 32.70668 12.3 0 3875 3 32.70668 12.2 0 3968.75 3 32.70668 12.2 0 4031.25 3 32.70668 12.2 0 4093.75 3 32.70668 12.3 0 4156.25 4 32.31974 12.3 0 4250 4 32.12627 12.2 0 4312.5 4 31.73933 12.1 0 4375 3 31.73933 12.1 1 4406.25 3 31.15892 12.1 1 4468.75 3 30.57851 12.2 1 4562.5 4 29.9981 12.2 1 4593.75 4 29.80463 12.2 1 4687.5 5 28.83728 12.2 1 4750 5 29.03075 12.2 1 4781.25 5 28.25687 12.2 0 4843.75 6 27.86993 12.2 0 4937.5 7 27.09605 12.2 0 4968.75 7 26.90258 12.2 0 5000 7 26.90258 12.2 0 5093.75 7 25.93523 12.2 0 5156.25 8 25.93523 12.1 0 5187.5 8 25.54829 12.2 0 5250 8 25.35482 12.1 0 5312.5 9 24.96788 12.1 0 5343.75 9 24.77441 12.1 0 5406.25 10 24.38747 12.1 0 5468.75 10 24.38747 12.1 0 5500 10 24.194 12.1 0 5562.5 10 23.61359 12.1 0 5625 10 23.61359 12 0 5656.25 10 23.42012 12 0 5718.75 10 23.22665 12 0 5750 11 22.83971 11.9 0 5812.5 12 23.22665 12 0 5843.75 12 22.83971 12 0 5906.25 12 22.45277 11.9 0 5937.5 12 22.83971 11.9 0 6000 12 22.83971 12 0 6031.25 13 22.45277 12 0 6093.75 13 21.87236 12.1 0 6125 13 21.67889 12.1 0 6156.25 13 22.2593 12.1 0 6218.75 13 21.09848 12.1 0 6250 13 21.67889 12.1 0 6312.5 14 21.67889 12.1 0 6343.75 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6375 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6406.25 14 21.09848 12.1 0 6468.75 14 21.29195 12.1 0 6500 14 20.71154 12.1 0 6531.25 14 20.71154 12 0 6593.75 14 20.71154 12 0 6625 15 20.71154 12 0 6656.25 15 20.3246 12 0 6687.5 15 20.13113 11.9 0 6718.75 15 20.13113 11.9 0 6781.25 16 19.93766 11.9 0 6812.5 16 19.74419 11.9 0 6843.75 16 19.55072 11.9 0 6875 17 19.74419 11.9 0 6906.25 17 19.35725 11.9 0 6937.5 17 19.55072 11.9 0 6968.75 17 19.16378 11.9 0
Evolving Member
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 364
Likes: 3
From: Springfield, MO
Here is a log from a 2.3L, E85, CBRD BBKB, Everything ported.
This car was happy with timing, this log was right about MBT and I dialed it back a degree or two after this.
This was also back before load clip was found. I'd say this was around 400 load at peak too. Boost @ 33-34psi peak
Hope this helps
This car was happy with timing, this log was right about MBT and I dialed it back a degree or two after this.
This was also back before load clip was found. I'd say this was around 400 load at peak too. Boost @ 33-34psi peak
Code:
RPM TimingAdv WideBandAF KnockSum Load1B 3250 8 12.9 0 265.9375 3312.5 7 12.7 0 292.5 3468.75 6 12.6 0 318.125 3562.5 6 12.4 0 342.8125 3656.25 5 12.2 0 359.0625 3781.25 5 11.9 0 376.875 3906.25 5 11.6 0 379.6875 4125 6 11.8 0 379.6875 4281.25 6 12.1 0 379.6875 4406.25 6 12.2 0 379.6875 4562.5 7 12.1 0 379.6875 4718.75 8 11.8 0 379.6875 4812.5 9 11.8 0 379.6875 4937.5 10 11.8 0 379.0625 5062.5 10 11.8 0 379.6875 5250 10 11.5 1 379.6875 5375 11 11.5 1 379.6875 5500 13 11.6 0 379.375 5687.5 14 11.5 0 377.1875 5781.25 14 11.5 0 378.4375 5875 15 11.6 0 378.4375 6000 15 11.6 0 373.4375 6156.25 17 11.7 0 363.4375 6250 17 11.8 0 355.9375 6375 18 11.8 0 349.6875 6531.25 18 11.9 0 346.875 6625 18 11.9 0 344.375 6718.75 18 11.9 0 343.4375 6812.5 19 11.9 0 340 6937.5 19 12 0 336.875 7031.25 19 12 0 333.75 7093.75 19 12.1 0 331.25 7218.75 19 12 0 327.1875 7312.5 20 12 0 322.5 7375 20 12 0 320.3125 7437.5 20 12 0 316.25 7500 20 12 0 313.125 7625 20 12 0 308.75 7687.5 21 12.1 0 305.625 7781.25 21 12.2 0 301.25
Hope this helps
A question here: Is there any point to running negative timing? When tuning I have always thought that if I have to go negative to keep knock at bay it is better just to turn the boost down until you can run some positive numbers, but I have never actually done any testing to confirm this.
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Evolving Member
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From: The Colony, TX
A question here: Is there any point to running negative timing? When tuning I have always thought that if I have to go negative to keep knock at bay it is better just to turn the boost down until you can run some positive numbers, but I have never actually done any testing to confirm this.
The burn speed determines how fast that maximum cylinder pressure is developed and the burn speed is affected by your AFR. Around 12.5 afr for gasoline burns fastest, as you go leaner or richer from there is gets slower.
I have seen the big power guys running negative timing values like this...
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...ne-800whp.html
I'm not saying that I need to be running negative timing in my current application, I am just being timid and trying to stay safe on e85 since I just dropped so much coin on this 2.3L build and I haven't tuned on E85 before. I'll probably try for 1* max at peak load until I can get on a real dyno and can be more confident in finding mbt.