post your maps here
Jul 11, 2006, 04:07 PM
#181
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
I dont need to "tell"
As anyone knows there are hundreds and hundreds of cars out there with my maps which have been running for long periods of time - without incident - on larger injectors
And might I add - going very fast in the process
As anyone knows there are hundreds and hundreds of cars out there with my maps which have been running for long periods of time - without incident - on larger injectors
And might I add - going very fast in the process
Personally, I have seen lots of improperly tuned cars running without incident, doesn't mean they are running at their optimium or the correct way.
I would rather have the STFT/LTFT within +/- 5 then having the ECU compensate for improper scaling. That's just me.
Last edited by razorlab; Jul 11, 2006 at 04:11 PM.
Jul 11, 2006, 04:16 PM
#182
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
On a seperate note
More to the topic at hand - the posting of tuner maps on the internet
I reserve a copyright on all ecu mapping I do
for some time now I have been protecting my work with written agreements
I have no problem with my customers looking at my maps and discussing methods of tuning and using those maps to tune their own cars. In fact my customers are free to use the maps any way they wish.
I do have a problem with people who take my maps and post them on the internet for others to use as this is basically stealing my ideas which I worked hard to come up with.
ALL Dyno Flash customers are asked NOT to post your maps on the internet of share them with others.
Dyno Flash customers all get ongoing customer support and assistance
Custom Tuned customers get free update maps and adjustments. Also they get reduced price custom tunes.
Base flash and E FLASH! customers get one free adjustment and reduced price update tunes and custom tuned.
All Dyno Flash customers get free tech support and advice on evo modifcations and parts selction
ANY Dyno Flash customers who I observe giving away my maps or posting them on the internet will NO longer recieve any update maps or support of any kind in the future.
Finally, customers of other vendors on these forums - kindly DO NOT post your tuner's maps on the internet.
The vendor's provide financial support to the evolutionm community through monthly vendor subscription payments and they all participate in the forums to proivide tech support and product R & D.
Please consider the hard work and effort expended by those tuners in creating a tuning map before you post it on the internet for others to misappropriate.
More to the topic at hand - the posting of tuner maps on the internet
I reserve a copyright on all ecu mapping I do
for some time now I have been protecting my work with written agreements
I have no problem with my customers looking at my maps and discussing methods of tuning and using those maps to tune their own cars. In fact my customers are free to use the maps any way they wish.
I do have a problem with people who take my maps and post them on the internet for others to use as this is basically stealing my ideas which I worked hard to come up with.
ALL Dyno Flash customers are asked NOT to post your maps on the internet of share them with others.
Dyno Flash customers all get ongoing customer support and assistance
Custom Tuned customers get free update maps and adjustments. Also they get reduced price custom tunes.
Base flash and E FLASH! customers get one free adjustment and reduced price update tunes and custom tuned.
All Dyno Flash customers get free tech support and advice on evo modifcations and parts selction
ANY Dyno Flash customers who I observe giving away my maps or posting them on the internet will NO longer recieve any update maps or support of any kind in the future.
Finally, customers of other vendors on these forums - kindly DO NOT post your tuner's maps on the internet.
The vendor's provide financial support to the evolutionm community through monthly vendor subscription payments and they all participate in the forums to proivide tech support and product R & D.
Please consider the hard work and effort expended by those tuners in creating a tuning map before you post it on the internet for others to misappropriate.
Jul 11, 2006, 04:24 PM
#184
I was aware of that and made mention of that in a much earlier post.. but understand I was looking at cars recently tuned, where this feature was available.. there is only so much resolution in the values of the maps themselves, also the ability to alter the global fueling using scaling means adding injectors or changing size, and altering the injector scaling should minimize the time needed to retune the car. Its certainly true that new tools made working with these maps alot easier, I have also been doing this for a very long time and have seen the tools evolve, it was for a different platform, but things arent all that different. I do have access to alot of data and resources, but what I learned, I learned from data that has been available for a long time. Hex editing sucks, no doubt about it.. I have done it on everything from automotive ECU Roms, to embedded systems used in smart cards, to cryptanalysis of encrypted data streams to find useful patterns of information.. It was what I did for fun and work.. But it also gave me the tools to very easily find and utilize useful information. Anyway, back on topic, there has to be critics, everyone doesnt agree on everything everyone does, thats just nature.. Whether its good or not, these tools do open everyone up for it.. I certainly have no interest in professional tuning, after seeing how busy you are, and how much you travel, I definitely dont have the constitution for it.. But don't confuse my choice with my abilities..
Sometimes it may not seem that way because we dont always agree on things, but I do admire the fact that your providing a service for the community thats affordable and does the job that is promised.. I also feel that even though sharing maps isn't a legal issue, it is a courtesy that I respect and would hope others also respect. But it doesnt change the fact that some of us are asked on occasion to look at a map and offer opinions of it.. I just dont care to know where they originate from.
Sometimes it may not seem that way because we dont always agree on things, but I do admire the fact that your providing a service for the community thats affordable and does the job that is promised.. I also feel that even though sharing maps isn't a legal issue, it is a courtesy that I respect and would hope others also respect. But it doesnt change the fact that some of us are asked on occasion to look at a map and offer opinions of it.. I just dont care to know where they originate from.
Jul 11, 2006, 04:50 PM
#185
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
I was aware of that and made mention of that in a much earlier post.. but understand I was looking at cars recently tuned, where this feature was available.. there is only so much resolution in the values of the maps themselves, also the ability to alter the global fueling using scaling means adding injectors or changing size, and altering the injector scaling should minimize the time needed to retune the car. Its certainly true that new tools made working with these maps alot easier, I have also been doing this for a very long time and have seen the tools evolve, it was for a different platform, but things arent all that different. I do have access to alot of data and resources, but what I learned, I learned from data that has been available for a long time. Hex editing sucks, no doubt about it.. I have done it on everything from automotive ECU Roms, to embedded systems used in smart cards, to cryptanalysis of encrypted data streams to find useful patterns of information.. It was what I did for fun and work.. But it also gave me the tools to very easily find and utilize useful information. Anyway, back on topic, there has to be critics, everyone doesnt agree on everything everyone does, thats just nature.. Whether its good or not, these tools do open everyone up for it.. I certainly have no interest in professional tuning, after seeing how busy you are, and how much you travel, I definitely dont have the constitution for it.. But don't confuse my choice with my abilities..
Sometimes it may not seem that way because we dont always agree on things, but I do admire the fact that your providing a service for the community thats affordable and does the job that is promised.. I also feel that even though sharing maps isn't a legal issue, it is a courtesy that I respect and would hope others also respect. But it doesnt change the fact that some of us are asked on occasion to look at a map and offer opinions of it.. I just dont care to know where they originate from.
Sometimes it may not seem that way because we dont always agree on things, but I do admire the fact that your providing a service for the community thats affordable and does the job that is promised.. I also feel that even though sharing maps isn't a legal issue, it is a courtesy that I respect and would hope others also respect. But it doesnt change the fact that some of us are asked on occasion to look at a map and offer opinions of it.. I just dont care to know where they originate from.
I appreciate your contributions to the evo community.
Jul 11, 2006, 05:14 PM
#186
Originally Posted by razorlab
If I made that same statement, someone would sure ask me to qualify it.
Personally, I have seen lots of improperly tuned cars running without incident, doesn't mean they are running at their optimium or the correct way.
I would rather have the STFT/LTFT within +/- 5 then having the ECU compensate for improper scaling. That's just me.
Personally, I have seen lots of improperly tuned cars running without incident, doesn't mean they are running at their optimium or the correct way.
I would rather have the STFT/LTFT within +/- 5 then having the ECU compensate for improper scaling. That's just me.
There is no magic he is referring to, If there were no injector scaler, what other option would you have other than to adjust each raw cell manually and to make it easier using a wideband I would suppose. Once you get it right on 1 car from trial and error it will take less time to get it working properly on another. Dont insist on him tellin you his secrets that is his lively hood lol, and that is why people go to him to get tuned. Many tuners know all the same things anyways just some are better at tuning than others. Plus some editors can be scaled for more resolution as well.
Last edited by mchuang; Jul 11, 2006 at 05:25 PM.
Jul 11, 2006, 06:06 PM
#187
Evolved Member
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: 41° 59' N, 87° 54' W
Posts: 6,224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have not seen any pre-ECUflash tunes that rescaled the injector size. I have also seen that while some flashes rescale the injector size solely using the fuel maps, others also include modifications to related tables - albeit not the injector size.
As far as the topic of sharing ROM files goes, I think it will pretty much go the way of the music industry. You are always going to have some people that are going to try to get their stuff for free and others who are willing to pay for it. IMO the issues are several-fold:
1.) Mail-in or Base flashes would be the primary target. If a tuner's base flash were to be published, it could potentially eliminate that line of business for that tuner. Since the ROM files are published in electronic format, I don't see how much longer the mail-in flash business will exist for the Evo. While EvoM has set guidelines against posting such files (which I applaud), there are plenty of places on the web where such files can be shared and where it is perfectly legal to do so. IMO it is only a matter of time until free base flashes become available with the custom tune being the upsell, similar to most shareware.
2.) Tuning methodology - by looking at how a tuner has chosen to tune the car (i.e. which tables were modified and how they were modified), customers and competitors can gauge, to a degree, the quality of the work that went into the tune
3.) Custom flashes. I still don't know what the big deal is here. If people really think that they can take a custom tune for Evo #1 and apply it to Evo #2 (even if it has the same mods), then they almost deserve what is likely to happen -> a visit from the grenade fairy.
Ultimately the future of ECU tuning and the fate of the tuners will, as it usually does, come down to the customers. If customers perceive that spending 'x' amount of $$ on a tune is worth it, then they will pay it.
l8r)
As far as the topic of sharing ROM files goes, I think it will pretty much go the way of the music industry. You are always going to have some people that are going to try to get their stuff for free and others who are willing to pay for it. IMO the issues are several-fold:
1.) Mail-in or Base flashes would be the primary target. If a tuner's base flash were to be published, it could potentially eliminate that line of business for that tuner. Since the ROM files are published in electronic format, I don't see how much longer the mail-in flash business will exist for the Evo. While EvoM has set guidelines against posting such files (which I applaud), there are plenty of places on the web where such files can be shared and where it is perfectly legal to do so. IMO it is only a matter of time until free base flashes become available with the custom tune being the upsell, similar to most shareware.
2.) Tuning methodology - by looking at how a tuner has chosen to tune the car (i.e. which tables were modified and how they were modified), customers and competitors can gauge, to a degree, the quality of the work that went into the tune
3.) Custom flashes. I still don't know what the big deal is here. If people really think that they can take a custom tune for Evo #1 and apply it to Evo #2 (even if it has the same mods), then they almost deserve what is likely to happen -> a visit from the grenade fairy.
Ultimately the future of ECU tuning and the fate of the tuners will, as it usually does, come down to the customers. If customers perceive that spending 'x' amount of $$ on a tune is worth it, then they will pay it.
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; Jul 11, 2006 at 06:10 PM.
Jul 11, 2006, 06:42 PM
#188
Evolved Member
iTrader: (4)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: chicago area
Posts: 906
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The vendor's provide financial support to the evolutionm community through monthly vendor subscription payments and they all participate in the forums to proivide tech support and product R & D.
Please consider the hard work and effort expended by those tuners in creating a tuning map before you post it on the internet for others to misappropriate.
Please consider the hard work and effort expended by those tuners in creating a tuning map before you post it on the internet for others to misappropriate.
Jul 11, 2006, 06:47 PM
#189
Al how do you copyright something that is not yours to begin with. The program is Mitsu's. The ECU is the customers. So if I design an Excel spreadsheet for someone I can copyright it? What you provide is a service not a product. I am not an attorney, but it just does not sound right. Please explain.
By the way I do agree with not being able to post vendors MAP's, but this is a forum where people go to learn and teach as well. The only thing I have learned from you is you are arrogant. Everytime some one says a word against you you go into how manyu Evo's youve tuned and how fast they go. You dodge the real subject. I joined this forum to learn about Ecuflash, not your tuning resume. It would be nice if you would stick to the Dynoflash forum and push your product there and let us lowlifes teach each other and learn from each other. I have yet to see you offer any help or useful info for using Ecuflash.
By the way I do agree with not being able to post vendors MAP's, but this is a forum where people go to learn and teach as well. The only thing I have learned from you is you are arrogant. Everytime some one says a word against you you go into how manyu Evo's youve tuned and how fast they go. You dodge the real subject. I joined this forum to learn about Ecuflash, not your tuning resume. It would be nice if you would stick to the Dynoflash forum and push your product there and let us lowlifes teach each other and learn from each other. I have yet to see you offer any help or useful info for using Ecuflash.
Last edited by cpoevo; Jul 11, 2006 at 06:55 PM.
Jul 11, 2006, 07:29 PM
#190
Ok getting dumb now. Come on guys this is not the first freeware engine managment ever. Honda has crome. Those guys post bin files like nothing and never have any problems. How come we are having so much trouble here. If you are a good tuner, no matter what people will come to you. I personally would never use someone elses map and hopefully no one else would be that dumb to use someone elses custom tune. I only see map posting as a means for helping others who are trying to diy. For example, Fellow member was tuned by tuner A, and saying his car runs crappy for normal driving, but hauls booty WOT. He says can someone look at my flash bin and suggest some adjustments or advice. Everyone has a look at his tune and gives suggestions and constructive criticism or advice like MalibuJack does very well lol. There is no real magic behind tuning, just some are better than others as I said before. So get over the secrets crap, because there are not really any secrets just some are tuners are more familiar with certain software. Any good tuner can tune anything that has a timing map, fuel map, and certain other small parameters like injector multipliers that ease tuning.
Jul 11, 2006, 07:30 PM
#191
Originally Posted by cpoevo
It would be nice if you would stick to the Dynoflash forum and push your product there and let us lowlifes teach each other and learn from each other. I have yet to see you offer any help or useful info for using Ecuflash.
Here is a good suggestion and solves the argument on both sides. Vendors take a Mitsu copyrighted map and make changes and then claim it to be protected under federal copyright law. We can clearly see what has been changed vs. stock. We should take the vendor maps and make changes and say our new maps are copyrighted. We can also show the changes that were made. Here is the difference, we don't care if you use our maps and we will not threaten to sue you if you use it and give it to other folks. There, problem solved and everyone is protected.
The momentum of this forum will eventually create a database of maps that can be accessed by the user community, for free, based on a set of given mods. Basically, the same as Mr. Dynoflash has done and rightfully so. The skills of the custom tuner will be more apparent for those wanting to maximize the results and seek a tune specific for their vehicle. That is the right way to go in my opinion. I have never been a big fan of JWT and such that provide tunes over the internet as most cars don't react the same and the results are poor. That may be a function of the ECU and fuel injection platform(old school). I saw many JWT tuned Z's run like crap and people complaining.
I always opted for aftermarket, such as the Electromotive Tech II and the new Tech III. I have tuned several cars over the past 9 years including my daily driven 240Z shown in my signature. However, the beauty of paying $90 for a cable and the software being free is just too compelling not to use. I have no problem hosting maps created by this forum on my site in the near future and will not post maps created by other vendors on this website as the vendors are providing critical financial support to this great forum.
Last edited by 240Z TwinTurbo; Jul 11, 2006 at 07:34 PM.
Jul 11, 2006, 07:49 PM
#193
[QUOTE]
The vendor's provide financial support to the evolutionm community through monthly vendor subscription payments and they all participate in the forums to proivide tech support and product R & D.
QUOTE]
You have said this before, which in a way irritates me because the members of the forum are the reason you pay subscriptions, which mean we provide vendors with finances to provide financial support to the community. It is not like you would pay EVOM any fees if there were no members here. Please dont make it seem like the vendors make the forum, when in reality it is a joint effort of many members and vendors. Some vendors are very helpful, as far as giving insite, AMS, VISHNU, TURBOTRIX, BUSCHUR to name a few. Like on that timing issue AMS was very helpful in trying to resolve why the stock ecu kept pulling timing on a members ecu. Post was like 2 weeks ago, other things that vendors do. Stuff like that is greatly appreciated.
The vendor's provide financial support to the evolutionm community through monthly vendor subscription payments and they all participate in the forums to proivide tech support and product R & D.
QUOTE]
You have said this before, which in a way irritates me because the members of the forum are the reason you pay subscriptions, which mean we provide vendors with finances to provide financial support to the community. It is not like you would pay EVOM any fees if there were no members here. Please dont make it seem like the vendors make the forum, when in reality it is a joint effort of many members and vendors. Some vendors are very helpful, as far as giving insite, AMS, VISHNU, TURBOTRIX, BUSCHUR to name a few. Like on that timing issue AMS was very helpful in trying to resolve why the stock ecu kept pulling timing on a members ecu. Post was like 2 weeks ago, other things that vendors do. Stuff like that is greatly appreciated.
Jul 11, 2006, 08:20 PM
#195
Account Disabled
iTrader: (91)
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
Posts: 16,850
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by 240Z TwinTurbo
I think your point is well taken. I do find it strange that on a forum designed for those folks wanting to tune themselves you have Dynoflash telling us what we cannot do.
Here is a good suggestion and solves the argument on both sides. Vendors take a Mitsu copyrighted map and make changes and then claim it to be protected under federal copyright law. We can clearly see what has been changed vs. stock. We should take the vendor maps and make changes and say our new maps are copyrighted. We can also show the changes that were made. Here is the difference, we don't care if you use our maps and we will not threaten to sue you if you use it and give it to other folks. There, problem solved and everyone is protected.
The momentum of this forum will eventually create a database of maps that can be accessed by the user community, for free, based on a set of given mods. Basically, the same as Mr. Dynoflash has done and rightfully so. The skills of the custom tuner will be more apparent for those wanting to maximize the results and seek a tune specific for their vehicle. That is the right way to go in my opinion. I have never been a big fan of JWT and such that provide tunes over the internet as most cars don't react the same and the results are poor. That may be a function of the ECU and fuel injection platform(old school). I saw many JWT tuned Z's run like crap and people complaining.
I always opted for aftermarket, such as the Electromotive Tech II and the new Tech III. I have tuned several cars over the past 9 years including my daily driven 240Z shown in my signature. However, the beauty of paying $90 for a cable and the software being free is just too compelling not to use. I have no problem hosting maps created by this forum on my site in the near future and will not post maps created by other vendors on this website as the vendors are providing critical financial support to this great forum.
Here is a good suggestion and solves the argument on both sides. Vendors take a Mitsu copyrighted map and make changes and then claim it to be protected under federal copyright law. We can clearly see what has been changed vs. stock. We should take the vendor maps and make changes and say our new maps are copyrighted. We can also show the changes that were made. Here is the difference, we don't care if you use our maps and we will not threaten to sue you if you use it and give it to other folks. There, problem solved and everyone is protected.
The momentum of this forum will eventually create a database of maps that can be accessed by the user community, for free, based on a set of given mods. Basically, the same as Mr. Dynoflash has done and rightfully so. The skills of the custom tuner will be more apparent for those wanting to maximize the results and seek a tune specific for their vehicle. That is the right way to go in my opinion. I have never been a big fan of JWT and such that provide tunes over the internet as most cars don't react the same and the results are poor. That may be a function of the ECU and fuel injection platform(old school). I saw many JWT tuned Z's run like crap and people complaining.
I always opted for aftermarket, such as the Electromotive Tech II and the new Tech III. I have tuned several cars over the past 9 years including my daily driven 240Z shown in my signature. However, the beauty of paying $90 for a cable and the software being free is just too compelling not to use. I have no problem hosting maps created by this forum on my site in the near future and will not post maps created by other vendors on this website as the vendors are providing critical financial support to this great forum.
I think the point is that through a great deal of effort and testing, I was able to develop a manner in which to supply decent base maps (customized for various levels of modifications) that actually did work very well. I did not produce a product which was resulting in "poor" running cars. On the contrary the results have been suprizingly good.
I am 100% a supporter of the do it yourself tuners who wish to do thier own tuning and help others to do the same. Those who explore the stock ecu and how it works will be rewarded with great running cars and also what I have found to be a very facsinating process. Personally, I really enjoy the process of tuning and for those who share the same passion its a great experience.
What I don't appreciate is those few individuals who would rather just mis-appropriate my efforts (or other tuner's efforts) and cut and paste that work on the internet to give it away to others.
I have been anticipating a product of this nature for some kind and there are others which are in various stages of development and it is specifically for this reason that I set a very reasonable price point for my product. It is my hope that the typical evo owner who is not a do it yourself tuner would rather deal directly with a tuner to assure that they are getting the right map for the right application with some sort of vendor support to back up that tuning calibration.
There will always be those who prefer to get something for nothing and I am sure that many people will be posting maps in all sorts of places.
I am not fighting against the Ecu Flash technology, rather I have enbraced it. I ordered a huge quantity of those cables and have been supplying them to my customers who want to switch maps between a race gas and pump gas map. Also, I have been supplying the very inexpensive E FLASH ! service which affords a very resonably priced and well thought out base tuning calibration at a really inexpesive price point wih one free adjustment included.
Finally, I say this to my brother Evo owners, I was a Evo owner first and vendor second. I share your same passion and excitement for these fine cars. The ecu flash is a great product and a very positive progression in the evo tuning culture. Only months ago I was still fighting against SAFC users about the benefits of reflashes. I originally laid out my $6,000 payment to Tech Tom in order to do the same flashing on my own evo that now is open and free to anyone who wants to explore this great softwear. Anyone who tries to stand in the way of technological advancements will surely be left behind. Its time to get on the lap top, get ot on the road and find ot just how great these stock ecus are.