bigric09

iTrader: (37)

I'll post them a little bit later tonight. Im busy with work and working on a buddy's car.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

Here you go...

my LT trims are all within 5%, my ST trims show around -15 to -10 mostly now.

Has someone broken down what changing the values in the table will do and by how much ? I need to go back in a reread some stuff. I figured all i would have to do is change my RPM table, but i have dropped them about 10 points with no changes. It only really happens in 4th gear. If i cruise in 3rd in the same RPM its fine. I realize the load is probably different, but its not much at that point. Its almost like its adding fuel to compensate for if i was in that same rpm and under boost.

also want to add that i dont have my AIT sensor installed. Im pretty sure it doesnt matter, but wanted to throw that out there

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Definitely matters. Its still possible to make the car run ok as long as the temperature swings are too high, but without an IAT sensor to scale SD, your MAP and VE scalings will be far from typical values.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

What mrfred said.

Also, looking at your VE tables, I would highly recommend against a 1:1 map VE table. It may actually be somewhat related to your issue as well.

For example, you say that in 3rd gear at a certain RPM your fueling is fine, but in 4th gear at a certain RPM, your fueling is off. Probably because you are at a different map/load level. But, since you have your map VE table flat, it has no way to adjust for different map/load levels at the same RPM. For example, 30kpa at a certain RPM is going to have a different VE than 90kPa at that same RPM. The 90kpa is going to have a higher VE and needs that accounted for in your map VE table.

You simply can't build a proper 3D VE table with a flat 1:1 map VE table. Since you are already on SD, what I would recommend is to make some 3D charts of LTFT Lo + STFT for idle and LTFT Mid and STFT for various cruising RPM. That will show you where your VE tune is off. Then, use the combination of the two tables to tune it out. But you do need to use both tables. Otherwise you have no way to correct for different map/load levels at the same RPM.

Also, your STFT of -15 to -10 suggest that you need to take out 10-15% of VE in the areas where you are seeing -15to -10 STFT (assuming your LTFT is around 0). I think if you plot a 3D chart like I mentioned for idle and cruise at varying RPM, it will become clear what tweaking you need to do.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

thanks for the advice... i will get to digging in excel and setting something up.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

To create 3D charts, it will be much easier to use LogWorks. There are a few threads in this forum that describes how to do it. If not, I can help out.

wreckleford

iTrader: (2)

Although I am not recommending anyone do it this way if one were to flatline the MAP and RPM VE tables and adjust the fuel table values it wouldn't be any different to the approach one would use for an AEM or similar standalone. The fuel map would in effect become a 3d VE table. Of course you would have to run full time open loop, which a lot (most?) AEM people do anyway.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

i'd hate to bother you...

can you point me to the threads or give me the string to search for ? I'll hit you after that WHEN i cant figure it out. I say when because at this point im absolutely lost. I have so many seemingly simple questions right now that answering i bet will be easy, and it will clear up my confusion.

On my Rom setup... i only have 3 SD tables that are in the tuning section. The 2 tables i posted above and i think the other one is barometric.( im at my work computer).... i have only messing with the 2 tables. And mainly the RPM table. I know i need to do the KPA to Load table and adjust that. I know the 3d graphs are going to help with that.... the issue, what is the ve relating to exactly ? I believe i am understanding correctly that the first table relates Load in kPa to what the ecu considers load, then the second table im not sure what the relation is as my 2nd table is only labeled %. I guess the next is how do the %s related to the trims. I understand that when i see -20, i need to take 20% from that load area, but its the why i think that will clear my confusion. I feel like i need a diagram from Barney right now.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

this i understand a lot easier actually because of you tune the AEM. I have had it easy with Ecuflash as well as i started there. I think if i ran full time open loop, tuning the setup would be easier.... if in deed thats how the car would work and react.

Any comments ? Pros Cons ?

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

If you want an easy way to tune speed density, rather than using the fuel map as was decribed, read John's 'easy speed density' thread. It's very easy and should give relatively good results.

In my opinion though, if you learn how to tune the 2D maps and get a grasp on that, it will all come together. And when the 3D VE table is implemented, it will be even better.

As far as using LogWorks and the 3D charts, etc, read through the 'SD first test success' thread. That thread also has good information from John that should answer most of your questions.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

super, i appreciate it man....

ultimately i want the car to just run well for now, but i dont want to take the easy way out, id like to take the right way out.

FYI, my maf is still in the car, i just have it unplugged. It would be easy for me to log something if that is the point you were getting at earlier.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

Since you are on SD now, you can keep it on that and log what I suggested. When you were on MAF converting to SD, you should have created 3D VE charts from your maf logs to establish the 'correct' 2D VE tables (I believe it was explained how in the SD first test success thread).

But, since you are now on SD, you can smiply use your long term and short term trims to see where the tweaking is needed.

If you do a log as follows (keeping your car in SD), post it up and I can create the 3D chart for you:

A nice long log, with at least 20 mins of cruising around at varying RPM levels and map levels. If you can concentrate on steady cruise at varying RPM levels, even better, ie 2000, 2500, 3000, etc. Basically we just want to get as many samples in as many map/RPM cells as possible.

Also, at least a good 5 mins of idle. If this log is kept separate that would help out, but not necessary.

Log the following:

LTFT Lo
LTFT Mid
STFT
RPM
Map
MAT
load

What I will do is create a 3D chart of:

LTFT Lo + STFT for idle
LTFT Mid +STFT for cruise

This will show us where your '3D' VE table is off. Then, we can adjust your two 2D SD tables to compensate for the necessary changes.

knochgoon24

iTrader: (2)

Can you explain what would need logged for this and how to go about making the 3D table? I've read a lot about switching to SD, but I don't recall seeing the exact way to setup a 3D table to then use to tune. I still have my MAF.

l2r99gst

iTrader: (2)

If you are still on MAF, then you log:

load
map
RPM
mat

Here is an example of what it will look like.

Maybe start reading that thread at about page 8 or so and continue on from there.

Edit: By page #33 here, you will get to this formula, to be a bit more accurate for VE based on a 25C map=load setup:

VE= Load/(MAP*(298/(273+MAT)))

You then make a 3D VE chart (very easy in LogWorks) for VE vs RPM.

bigric09

iTrader: (37)

i will make a log or 2 on the way to work in the morning. Ill send the 5 min idle and then the cruise.

Today has been a rough day for the car though. It was a little rainy outside and she spent most of my trip in to work around 10.5 to 11 nomatter what gear. All seemed better on the ride home, but still.