Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

I know right out the gate, some of you are wondering, why I did not continue on with my other fueling issue thread --> https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...l-failure.html. The issues I am seeing are yes related to Injector Tuning again, but again with a weird Idle Issue, and Fuel Pressure issue. These are similar but different issues than before. I and others have thought of a lot of things, but yet issues still arise. So here is what I have done, and tried, and where I am at. My goal is to do it right, and have a solid reliable high boost car.

Ok, In my signature is the updated parts list. It is currently what is running on my car.

A little over a year ago, I had the car decently tuned running a smaller turbo than what is on that build sheet, a metallic intake tube, and with the PTE 1200 Injectors. All the rest the same.

These injector settings:
Mitsubishi: 1004
ECUFlash: 860
6.12
3.36
2.064
1.344
0.864
0.528
0.288

With the smaller Tomei Arms Turbo, my trims were in check, and boost was great only off about .2 AFR at the top. MAF Compensation was stock, and able to boost just fine to 24 psi.

Of course, I had issues with the FIC 1350's from the other thread, and have since to MFRED's advice, removed them, and reinstalled the PTE 1200's. Currently, the only change on the car is a bigger turbo(FP RED, 10.5 Hotside), FP Silicone Intake, and a FPR.

I plug those settings above in, and trims are in check which looks positive, but the minute I go for boost about 3500 RPMS I am full lean, 13 AFR's, which is worse than the FIC 1350's with there settings causing lean condition at that RPM to about 12.4 AFR's.

THe only thing that has changed mind you is the turbo, intake tube and the FPR.

I have looked on here, and English Racing suggests these settings for the PTE 1200's.
Mitsubishi scaling: 1219
ECUFlash scaling: 1044
3.312
2.184
2.088
1.296
0.792
0.72
0.48

I tried these settings and get a 20% demand for fuel in Idle Trims, and would bet it was about that for cruise.

I tried lowering the size scaling down to the size I had success with earlier in the conversation, but still ran into fuel being needed. THis suggests I need to drop the size down further, both here with English settings, as well as mine.

When I go lower in size on injectors, to get Boost in check in the top end, then the idle and cruise trims go pig rich. -12.5 on both on the FIC's and PTE's. I don't understand this. We had one setting that was better with FIC's a month ago, but it was a fluke, issue with pressure, once I realized and rectified the fuel pressure issue, they were pretty off again. That's why I changed them, cuz I started to think they were leaky. Plugs even showed fouling because of rich condition.

I just don't understand the limited changes I have made mechanically throwing off the tune that far. I also don't understand, why my injectors have such a tough time with boost. I can even max out my fuel table giving it all the fuel it needs, and it stays lean!

Fuel Pressure issue. Can start the car cold, and pressure will be on, at 44 PSI. Let it warm up, get hot, drive it for 30 minutes, an it starts to drop. Drive it or 2 hours, and it really drops.
Battery voltage cold is 14V. Battery voltage at idle after 20 minutes, 13.8V. Battery voltage over time or extremely warm, 13.5-6V. THis is a voltage drop of half a volt... I have been through the entire fuel circuit, inside and out. All voltages seem to be ok. Pump low voltage seems to be right around 7.9V-8.4 volts. Which correlates to what we see cold, and then warm, it's about half a volt.
Pump is a Deutsche Works 300/320LPH. Stock fuel lines both draw, and return. Skunk2 FUel Rail, PTE1200, AEM FPR, back to tank. The AEM FPR has the Gold .250 return orifice installed, per recommendation from some friends at RRE.
I have no idea why it keeps fluctuation. I am not sure how greatly this effects my Boost fueling. I know it messes with trims a little, about 3%, not sure what that equates to in boost.

Weird Idle drop issue. Thought I solved this 3 times, with three different things, it's back. I can start car cold, drive just fine for a while. I can even shut it off, and restart it, 20 times no issues. But randomly, every now and again, I will shut it off for say min. 20 minutes, even longer. But go to restart, and it has issue idling up to 1000. It wants to struggle at 600. THen it will catch itself, and I will drive, get stuck at a light lets say, and it drops to 600 RPMS again. The only thing in the logs I can see, is that half a volt I was talking about in the fueling issue. It will be at about 13.6 volts when acting up. 13.6 volts is good, so I thought. Why would it struggle at that voltage. Makes no sense.

So issue 1, Injector Tuning.
Been through the guide, the forum, a couple of the greats, and I still run into issues. Tried multiple approaches to this, all with results that don't equal what I am told they should. I am always having to adjust my MAF Compensation table decently, to wholy **** that's a lot.

Issue 2, Fuel Pressure issue, where to look? WHat to make of it. Half a volt cause that much issue?

Issue 3, Idle dip issue, at 13.6V. WHy is the car struggling so bad, below 14V?

I am begging any of you to throw some things out here. I am losing my mind.

Thanks in advance.

lancerrally45

iTrader: (22)

Number 2 is affecting number 1 and number 1 is affecting number 3. Fix your fuel pressure. Try a different regulator, make sure the pump is installed right and test. Fixing the fuel pressure will allow you to correctly tune your injectors thus solving number 3.

sterlinge

iTrader: (3)

could be a charging issue with your alternator. buddy had a similar problem with a 2jz where it would drop a very small amount of voltage but it was really the low amps causing problems.

lancerrally45

iTrader: (22)

Totally different.
The next voltage level for latencies is around 11.7v for evos. Highly doubtful your ecu is adverting to that latency.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Thank you for the suggested theory, of which, I think you are correct.

Not my first rodeo on pumps. It's installed correctly. Tested voltage and entire circuit of fuel system a month ago. Nothing has changed except injectors. Rechecked tonight as per your suggestion. PUmp is good. It measures 2.5 ohms of resistance. On cranking, it sees 12.65V. On Startup it measures 12.65V. then drops to 8.0V at running. With in 20 minutes at operating temp, it drops to 7.47V highest and average at 7.2V. I traced wires as far as I could under the car to where they enter under the rear seat on the passenger side, and measured same voltage. So no loss to that point from a voltage perspective that we are seeing. Its got to be under the carpet at the ground point at this point.

Does anyone know where this ground point is? Under dash, Passenger front kick panel, ??? Little help would be awesome, schematics don't say.

I will also be adding an 8 gauge ground at the pump in the A.M. Gonna make a little 4 inch ground to the fuel pump cover screw.

Entire voltage in system at cold startup is 14.1V. Once it hits operating temp, it drops to 13.5V-13.7V. The last two days it has been dropping to 13.5V.

Checked Fuse in engine compartment for Voltage, and it is seeing 12.65 on battery, cold, and 14.1V with engine running. I was not able to get a running voltage or current because the tester I built, would not plug into that location due to sidewalls that hold fuse.

Moved to cabin, under dash. 7.5A fuse I changed to a 15A fuse per reputable source, considering the pump I am using. Under stock configuration of 7.5A fuse, would suggest that Amperage draw across this fuse and circuit at this point would be approx. 3-4 Amps. Pulled fuse. Voltage with ignition on, car off, 12.65V. Cranking voltage measured the same. Amperage across this fuse, with my test wires, measured 150mA cranking, and my tester completed the circuit, and car started, with a readout at start, fuel pump in high voltage mode, 190mA. It then climbed to 200mA, and stayed there for the 5 minute duration of car running. This poses serious questions. How did car fire and run on such low Amperage? Fuel pump needs a lot more. Calculated low voltage pump draw at this connection, 12V and pump Ohms plus line Ohms to be at least 3A. This point in the circuit is prior to the Fuel Relay 1 and Fuel Relay 2. I will test both of these relays in the AM. I did test them a month ago, but out of the car, and only ohms. They measured the same resistance as the 2 replacement relays I purchased, of which, I then returned, thinking Fuel Relay 1 and 2 were good, since voltage at both those connections with relays out measured 12V. I never tested them under load to see the actual connection path the current uses to go to relay 3 or the resister pack. I now have a way to do this.

Can anyone, give me Voltage and Amperage at the component locations of the circuit. I.E. Voltage Current that should flow across Fuel Pump Relay 1 and 2. Voltage and Current drop across Fuel Relay 3. Resistance, voltage, and amperage at fuel resister pack. This is not the Injector Resistor Pack. Check the schematic's, there is a Fuel Pump Resistor Pack attached to Fuel Relay 3. Also need average suggested voltage and current at Fuel Pump connector, both low and high.
This would be greatly appreciated, would even make a donation via PayPal. These values are not readily available anywhere that I can find.

Some side notes:
Also, whats interesting is, as voltage drops, and pressure drops, car gets richer. Not leaner. Gets richer. I don't understand that. Since FPR is not electrical circuit, and the thing driving pressure would be the pump, since no one responded to the Injectors causing low pressure thread, it's got to be the circuit in some way.

From cold ambient temperature, to running temperature, takes approx. 20 minutes. LIft the hood. Touch anywhere under the hood, not usual places, places that you normally don't see hot, wheel wells, top of struts, it burns your hands. Hood closed, IAT's(this is at the MAF) are averaging 125 to 160F. Car has not had an issue with it from an overheating standpoint, it still runs average of 180F in logs. Temp sensor shows about 3/8's, or just below half, this is where it has always ran. EGT temps at idle are about 280F, if its reading right in logs.

With the above mentioned heat, the Fuel Relay 3 and Fuel Resistor Pack sitting next to it, are burning hot. Wires are not melting, but very hot also.

What do any of you make of this? And will anyone supply the voltage data I need, and physical ground locations? I would greatly appreciate this.

Just saw this:
It actually does at 13.7 volts, anything below 14V even 13.9V utilizes the 11.7V column. Not fully, but a percentage. I have actually tested this in the last 3 days. I tested it my last round of injector tuning. It's also been documented in the Injector Tuning Super merged threads.

lancerrally45

iTrader: (22)

Can you point me to the threads that says the 11.7v column is being utilized while running 13.9v?

Also, you are thinking electrical, try thinking mechanical. I have a hard timing believe .5v is your culprit. Fpr working as intended? Fuel pump hose clamps tight? Stuff like that.
Have you tried putting the stock fpr back on?

Your voltages look to be normal and your battery shows signs of being good.

Fuel pressure is going down with run time/heat?? Double check all hoses. (Also, dont rule out the pump itself.)

Also, any boost leaks?

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

Are you measuring fuel pressure with the vacuum line disconnected?

lancerrally45

iTrader: (22)

Oh captain, My captain.

Can you give input on the 11.7v latency setting and when approximately the vehicle will start to use this latency field? Will it take a percentage when voltage drops below 14v? 13.5v? etc. or is it no percentage and there is a switch over point at a given volts?
From my logging Ive never seen it use 11.7v settings, even when I dipped below 14v.

sterlinge

iTrader: (3)

kinda sounds like your not getting consistant flow of fuel. seems you have enough fuel for idle but when your engine demands fuel under load/boost its not there. have you changed your fuel filter and checked your fuel lines for kinks?

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

The ECU should be using the latency associated with the battery voltage. How are logging latency?

lancerrally45

iTrader: (22)

My question is, at what point does the ECU decide to use 11.72v latency vs 14.06v latency. Say you have a battery voltage of 13.5v, will it use the 14.06v latency or will it interpolate (highly doubtful) the 14.06v with the 11.72v? Or is 11.72 latency used?

I apologize, latency cannot be logged. I was logging pulse widths and duty cycles. I guess if I was logging it I wouldn't need to ask the question

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ec...upermerge.html

I don't have time to find the specific post, but it's referenced in there. EDIT:Just looked. It was MRFred who infact said it. First post.
I will also explain below how I arrive at my findings.

Went through the entire car, top to bottom, every bolt, every circuit prior to Pikes Peak a month ago. Findings all the same. No gas smell, no leaky connections. Boost test is fine, vacuum test fine. FPR Is installed correctly with correct internal orifice. Verified by both AEM and RRE. I have not put the stock FPR back on, but symptoms started prior to install of AEM, on stock FPR. First thing we changed was Pump and FPR. Car has had issues with going into boost or any HZ above 400 in MAF. Worthy of note, Fuel Relay's 1 and 2 used to click under dash prior to all these issues. THey have been silent for 2-3 months. Hence why I thought maybe they were the culprit, but has no way to actually verify until I built my tester, of which I need comparative data to verify what the load side of the relay should be seeing.

Yes. Octochecked! I need to find someone who wants to hold leads at 100 miles an hour on the pump so we can get that data.

TO the Idle statment. No. INjector tuning a year ago. Got latencies and size scaling from both Aaron at English Racing, and the Injector Thread I referenced above. Correlation between settings worked for my PTE 1200's. So one could say they were in range, and subtle differences in car were to blame for the miniscule changes in latencies. Car was good on both trims, and boost was within .2 of AFR map. I have tried those same settings recently, and had to bump them a full 100mS in both the 11.7V and the 14.07V. I even had to change the size scaling to get in range on trims for both Idle and Cruise. And of course, she goes full lean in boost. Only changes again, are Tomei m7960 to FP RED with 10/5 Hotside, FP silicone turbo intake, and FPR.

Logging Trims, Injector Pulse Width, Injector Duty Cycle, and Injector Latency through EVOScan.
<DataListItem DataLog="N" Color="#00ab39" Display="Injector Pulse Width" LogReference="InjPulseWidth" RequestID="29" Eval="0.256*x" Unit="ms" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="66" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="66" ScalingFactor="10" Notes="" Priority="1" Visible="False" />
<DataListItem DataLog="N" Color="" Display="Injector Duty %" LogReference="InjDutyCycle" RequestID="21" Eval="[InjPulseWidth]*31.25*x/1200" Unit="%" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="160" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="160" ScalingFactor="1" Notes="Injector duty cycle % , which is RPM * 'Injector ms' / 1200. If you are regularly seeing over 90% duty, you may need bigger injectors. The injectors must have enough 'head room' too cope with unexpectedly high air flows - these may be caused by overboost, faults and particularly cold weather. " Priority="1" Visible="False" />
<DataListItem DataLog="N" Color="" Display="Injector Latency" LogReference="InjectorLatency" RequestID="79" Eval="x" Unit="units" MetricEval="" MetricUnit="" ResponseBytes="1" GaugeMin="0" GaugeMax="255" ChartMin="0" ChartMax="255" ScalingFactor="1" Notes="total_latecy is Injector_latecy_base*Inj_batt_volt_latecy_compensa t(v) /4" Priority="1" Visible="False" />

I assume you guys have your latencies dialed in. Trims good, and in check. Test it your selves on the interpolation of the 11.7V and 14.07V latencies. Drop your 11.7V latency down 200mS. Watch your Idle trim start demanding fuel. I've watched this countless times. I did not believe it myself. Then when I reinstalled the PTE's from the FIC's, and started with latencies bumped up, Idle and Cruise were in somewhat in check, but the increase of mS between 14.07 and 11.7 seemed odd, but they were roughly like I said about 100mS above Aaron at English Racing's suggested values for PTE 1200's. So I lowered the 11.07V column, and demand on Idle Trim went Full Lean at wanting +12.5 Went through a mini tuning latency there, only adding to the 11.7V column, and watched each increment change the Idle Trim. All at 13.6V. I am not sure if that made sense to anyone, but I see it, I believe the ECU will only utilize the 14.07V column alone, if it see's voltage above the level. when it goes in between it does infact interpolate a percent of the 11.7V column. Lower the voltage goes towards that value, the more it interpolates. It makes sens to me in the Computer/Software Engineering field, that there would be software code written with IF/And statements to that affect.

So yes, I am getting my findings via watching Trim Values and adjustments made in Rom to latencies. I have yet to figure out the output data I am seeing from the EVOScan Latency data log.

Still could use those Voltage/Current and Ground Points Please. Thanks guys for giving it a look.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

I didn't see an answer to my question to you as to whether you are measuring fuel pressure at idle with the vacuum line connected or disconnected.

Those relays only affect whether the pump gets any power. The relay that controls low/full voltage is in the engine compartment on the firewall. Its to the right of the injector resistor pack that's also on the firewall.

Raceghost

iTrader: (4)

Sorry Sir. Yes, at cold start idle, 14V I'm is when I have adjusted it to 44psi vacuum hose off. I then watch as car heats up. 13.7V I get 42 psi. When car is full hot, 13.5-6V I am down to 40 psi. All vacuum line disconnected, and plugged. Trims via evoscan start to go rich, approx 5% total, when this happens.

Also, I do not see an Inline fuel filter in the schematics. I did not see one under the car last night. I always thought there was just the one in the tank(sock) on fuel pump...

Ok. interesting. The way the schematic looks, as though those two control low voltage current side of pump, then relay 2 switches over to relay 3 in the engine compartment for high power mode. The schematics list the resister pack next to it as being the fuel pump resistor pack... I assumed that meant that there were two resistor packs, one for injectors, and one for fuel pump. Also, why would the low voltage circuit, have a 7.5 amp fuse from the factory, if it was not going to see 1-4 amps? Answer my own question on the 7.5A fuse, its just ignition circuit. I haven't measured current through relay 1 and 2 to see what they pass. Was interpreting the use of the 7.5A fuse incorrectly.

Also worthy of note, I pulled the plug in the engine compartment to relay three. Voltage at all times from the plug, measured only 6V. Also, I was able to crank and start car, and idle, with relay 3 unplugged. I am 99% sure this car has stock wiring for this circuit. Ive owned it since early 2008, before the rewire of the fuel system became the norm.

mrfred

iTrader: (50)

The engine will still run with relay #3 removed. This is equivalent to running in low voltage mode. If you look at your schematic, electric current will run through the resistor that creates the low voltage at the fuel pump.

The fuel filter is built into the fuel pump carrier (the white thing that holds the fuel pump).

If pressure is falling off at idle with the vacuum line disconnected its hard to imagine its the FPR because there isn't much in there that is temperature sensitive. More than likely the fuel pump is loosing capacity as it heats up.