A day that turned into a week, on the flow bench.
Feb 16, 2009, 04:00 PM
#47
Very interesting input guys. There are certainly a LOT of opinions on it all. I appreciate hearing everyone of them so no matter what I say, keep them coming, I am not shooting any of them down.
Some of the examples of people using this technology or that one to determine how to build an intake baffles me because I've seen how so many perform on the dyno and they are all pretty different and not one has done everything well except for the stock one. Maybe Mitsubishi has the best engineers and test equipment of all, actually I guess that's a no brainer there.
The velocity stack on the back of the TB inlet is something I want to incorporate on this intake manifold. I have to have the end plate made how I want it anyway.
Also Ross Machine would be a good place to source all these parts that matched the ideas I had in my head
haha You let the cat out of the bag.
Some of the examples of people using this technology or that one to determine how to build an intake baffles me because I've seen how so many perform on the dyno and they are all pretty different and not one has done everything well except for the stock one. Maybe Mitsubishi has the best engineers and test equipment of all, actually I guess that's a no brainer there.
The velocity stack on the back of the TB inlet is something I want to incorporate on this intake manifold. I have to have the end plate made how I want it anyway.
Also Ross Machine would be a good place to source all these parts that matched the ideas I had in my head
haha You let the cat out of the bag.
Feb 16, 2009, 04:14 PM
#48
BTW, the TB flange on the stock intake is also radiused on the back side of it.
Also, the stock intake manifold has about 6.5 degrees of taper on the runners calculated over the #4 runner which is 10" long. Thanks to Slorice for figuring that out for me
The plenum size I'm having a hard time getting myself to believe bigger is better. That is not what I have seen thus far through all this testing. Take into consideration the stock intake has a 52 cu. in. plenum on it and how well it works. I believe on a boosted application (after talking with someone else who mentioned this) that the i/c pipes and FMIC act as a plenum for engine. Think about it, it's an interesting thought.
Also think about these 2,000+ hp turbo V8's that have NO plenum.
Also, the stock intake manifold has about 6.5 degrees of taper on the runners calculated over the #4 runner which is 10" long. Thanks to Slorice for figuring that out for me
The plenum size I'm having a hard time getting myself to believe bigger is better. That is not what I have seen thus far through all this testing. Take into consideration the stock intake has a 52 cu. in. plenum on it and how well it works. I believe on a boosted application (after talking with someone else who mentioned this) that the i/c pipes and FMIC act as a plenum for engine. Think about it, it's an interesting thought.
Also think about these 2,000+ hp turbo V8's that have NO plenum.
Last edited by David Buschur; Feb 16, 2009 at 04:18 PM.
Feb 16, 2009, 04:24 PM
#49
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Jesse,
I ran flush stacks and raised stacks for the same runner length... raised stacks made more power. I've tested this on NA neons, boosted neons, and again...the carbon fiber F4i manifold.
Runner length has the largest affect on the power band. I did a lot of testing on runner taper as well. A lot of SAE papers suggest 2-3 degrees of taper, but 7-10 degrees showed more gains.
Best Intake manifold combination that has held true for all of my engine dyno experience...
- the largest plenum you can fit.
- Use Elliptical stacks that are raised off the port floor. (there is an SAE paper that details how to determine the multiradius elipse.)
- tune your runners to your power band. you may end up using the 5th or 6th wave of Helmholtz resonance...but you need to tune it regardless.
- For cylinder imbalance.... make the delta in area when entering the plenum as large as possible. This will promote a huge pressure loss (reduce flow capability) but balance the flow to each cylinder. NOTE: having a HUGE plenum makes this very easy.
And one of my thoughts that I havent tested yet...is a reverse stack on the backside of the throttle body mounting plate that allows the air to distribute into the plenum. I'll get to test this probably at the end of this year on another 600cc 4 cylinder or maybe a 500cc parallel twin.
.
I ran flush stacks and raised stacks for the same runner length... raised stacks made more power. I've tested this on NA neons, boosted neons, and again...the carbon fiber F4i manifold.
Runner length has the largest affect on the power band. I did a lot of testing on runner taper as well. A lot of SAE papers suggest 2-3 degrees of taper, but 7-10 degrees showed more gains.
Best Intake manifold combination that has held true for all of my engine dyno experience...
- the largest plenum you can fit.
- Use Elliptical stacks that are raised off the port floor. (there is an SAE paper that details how to determine the multiradius elipse.)
- tune your runners to your power band. you may end up using the 5th or 6th wave of Helmholtz resonance...but you need to tune it regardless.
- For cylinder imbalance.... make the delta in area when entering the plenum as large as possible. This will promote a huge pressure loss (reduce flow capability) but balance the flow to each cylinder. NOTE: having a HUGE plenum makes this very easy.
And one of my thoughts that I havent tested yet...is a reverse stack on the backside of the throttle body mounting plate that allows the air to distribute into the plenum. I'll get to test this probably at the end of this year on another 600cc 4 cylinder or maybe a 500cc parallel twin.
.
I've used the reversed velocity stack tb on more what i could consider "Universal" plenums. On most of our manifolds the plenum inlet is the ID of the TB so the transition is tappered naturally..
Feb 16, 2009, 04:26 PM
#50
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The plenum size I'm having a hard time getting myself to believe bigger is better. That is not what I have seen thus far through all this testing. Take into consideration the stock intake has a 52 cu. in. plenum on it and how well it works. I believe on a boosted application (after talking with someone else who mentioned this) that the i/c pipes and FMIC act as a plenum for engine. Think about it, it's an interesting thought.
Also think about these 2,000+ hp turbo V8's that have NO plenum.
Also think about these 2,000+ hp turbo V8's that have NO plenum.
Kind of similar to the honda k20 aftermarket manifolds.
Last edited by Cyloc; Feb 16, 2009 at 04:30 PM.
Feb 16, 2009, 04:51 PM
#52
cyloc, it is very funny that you mention an intake built like that. Back in 04-05 when I did my first test of an aftermarket intake and I wasn't happy with the results I had Burns Stainless make me two, 2" collectors out of aluminum. The idea was to mount the throttle body right on the end of the four-into-one collector. One of those I sent to Canada to be built into an intake and the other one we still have here at our shop. Nothing ever came of either one as far as I know. Ron Shearer and I were discussing the idea again the other day. If my thoughts on the plenum not needing to be so huge is correct then that four-into-one intake manifold might be the ticket. It is not something I am planning on building but as far as I know we do still have that collector here at the shop.
Jesse, those runners are freaking SWEET!! That's a huge amount of taper, how many degrees of taper is that and how long are those runners? What is the application? I see you have the stack built into the plenum floor, very nice. Everything I'd like to do if I could.
Jesse, those runners are freaking SWEET!! That's a huge amount of taper, how many degrees of taper is that and how long are those runners? What is the application? I see you have the stack built into the plenum floor, very nice. Everything I'd like to do if I could.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:10 PM
#53
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cyloc, it is very funny that you mention an intake built like that. Back in 04-05 when I did my first test of an aftermarket intake and I wasn't happy with the results I had Burns Stainless make me two, 2" collectors out of aluminum. The idea was to mount the throttle body right on the end of the four-into-one collector. One of those I sent to Canada to be built into an intake and the other one we still have here at our shop. Nothing ever came of either one as far as I know. Ron Shearer and I were discussing the idea again the other day. If my thoughts on the plenum not needing to be so huge is correct then that four-into-one intake manifold might be the ticket. It is not something I am planning on building but as far as I know we do still have that collector here at the shop.
So in theory, if you were to do the same runner set-up to a force induction car, that has a good flow pattern, it should produce a better power response. In turn there should also be much less lag. The reduction in lag would simply come from the fact that the pressure from the intercooler pipes would not suddenly hit a large openning(plenum). As long as you can keep the runner volume as close as possible to the volume of the IC pipes, it can act as one fluid piece.
I hope that all makes sense.....I have 10 things going at once here.
Last edited by Cyloc; Feb 16, 2009 at 05:12 PM.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:14 PM
#54
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Dave, I was just reading your testing again on your page and remembered the hypertune doing very well. What fuel rail do you have to use on it? Will the BR rail work? also, do you know if they ever changed any of those things on it?
Last edited by Celica2EVO; Feb 16, 2009 at 05:24 PM.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:27 PM
#55
The Hypertune did do very well, the winner in the comparison actually. The intercooler pipe was one issue with it, at the time the cost and then when I went back and did more testing the DI made the same power if I remember correctly. It should all be in the thread on our site with the facts in it.
I believe the Hypertune has the smallest plenum of all the intakes I tested, looking at it in the pictures above that seems to be the case. I just don't feel that a huge plenum is the right way to go.
This intake I am working on now has the plenum as small as I can get it using the pre-built plenum material that I chose to use. After the initial test I intend to cut the plenum down further. My making the plenum smaller I should also be able to get more runner length which I think the car needs for what I am trying to accomplish.
I believe the Hypertune has the smallest plenum of all the intakes I tested, looking at it in the pictures above that seems to be the case. I just don't feel that a huge plenum is the right way to go.
This intake I am working on now has the plenum as small as I can get it using the pre-built plenum material that I chose to use. After the initial test I intend to cut the plenum down further. My making the plenum smaller I should also be able to get more runner length which I think the car needs for what I am trying to accomplish.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:30 PM
#56
Also just one thing and I am not trying to argue with anyone. Machining the velocity stack to sit flush to the base of the plenum would be no easier than machining it to sit raised in the plenum, I don't believe that was way the decision was made by Ross to do it that way. Just my opinion though as I certainly haven't asked anyone.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:50 PM
#57
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Jesse, those runners are freaking SWEET!! That's a huge amount of taper, how many degrees of taper is that and how long are those runners? What is the application? I see you have the stack built into the plenum floor, very nice. Everything I'd like to do if I could.
Feb 16, 2009, 05:51 PM
#58
Well............I was definetely wrong about nobody else doing some of the things I am speaking of.
I have to give some credit to Magnus actually (of all people for me to do that to). I was just in a thread on EVOTECH looking at pictures of his new intake and then went to his site and he has pics posted there for anyone interested. He has incorporated the velocity stack into the floor of the plenum and also put the same angle into the runners that I was talking about the head having, which I figured was 10 degrees (so did he).
I won't be the first then. From the looks of his intake I may be better of just buying one of those.
Just wanted to give some credit since I found that I hadn't seen anyone else do these things on an EVO manifold yet.
I have to give some credit to Magnus actually (of all people for me to do that to). I was just in a thread on EVOTECH looking at pictures of his new intake and then went to his site and he has pics posted there for anyone interested. He has incorporated the velocity stack into the floor of the plenum and also put the same angle into the runners that I was talking about the head having, which I figured was 10 degrees (so did he).
I won't be the first then. From the looks of his intake I may be better of just buying one of those.
Just wanted to give some credit since I found that I hadn't seen anyone else do these things on an EVO manifold yet.
Feb 16, 2009, 06:11 PM
#60
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I haven't and prolly won't. On this application there is no way to keep a constant runner length and plenum volume with side entry TB, there simply isn't the room, the TB would be right into the radiator or the head light depending on which side it was on. We sell this intake for $999.00