Highest HP 4g63 engine (from 2007)
Sep 22, 2009, 12:06 PM
#46
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Sep 22, 2009, 12:28 PM
#48
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Thread Starter
Did i mention anywhere that our evo8 make a pass with 1400hp, dont mess trap speeds with HP.
In 2010 try the gt45 with 80mm comp.wheel that u will have full boost above 8000rpms, then we will have outspool our 1750hp turbo from the 4g63 engine.
Please dont mess this topic with timeslips etc. Its completely diferent.
Sorry to the other guys from this forum for my offtopic, i will not answer to anyone again that is offtopic, only serius posts will be unswered from me.
Mike keep up the good job, and leave this technical topic to the guys that realy wants to know.
Thanks
Spyros Panopoulos
Extreme Tuners
-------- Power Under Pressure --------
* Taking Turbocharging To The Next Level *
Sep 22, 2009, 01:54 PM
#52
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Europe has LOTS of race car knowledge, and clearly these guys in Greece know what they are doing. Great post, although hard to read as one large paragraph I loved it.
Sep 22, 2009, 11:08 PM
#55
Currently there are 2 US 4G63 cars and one UK car that contest this power number based on trap speed and E.t. versus weight. Neither have been dyno'd and the numbers released but they will be in the honest 1450-1500whp level.
We have used an 80mm GT4508 on an Evo and it will hit full boost around 7k actually (this was on a 2.0l 10:1 motor). On the dyno there was no difference between the 74mm 4202 and the 4508. On the track it feels like there is a difference but we didnt have sufficient data one way or the other.
We have used an 80mm GT4508 on an Evo and it will hit full boost around 7k actually (this was on a 2.0l 10:1 motor). On the dyno there was no difference between the 74mm 4202 and the 4508. On the track it feels like there is a difference but we didnt have sufficient data one way or the other.
Sep 22, 2009, 11:31 PM
#57
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I just just want to mention that in greece there aren't proper race tracks or dragstrips only a few old airports whith no glue.
Its not that easy to make low pass times there at 3-4 races per year!
keep posting stuff thread looks interesting
Its not that easy to make low pass times there at 3-4 races per year!
keep posting stuff thread looks interesting
Sep 22, 2009, 11:36 PM
#58
You are OFF TOPIC. Look the title of the topic again.
If u want tell me something for ur horsepower and show me ur dynoplot.
We had 1400hp before 2 year with common racing fuel when most tuners (supose and u) try the stock 74mm garrett Gt42 for first time to the 4g63 engine.
Please next time post something usefull to THIS topic.
If u want tell me something for ur horsepower and show me ur dynoplot.
We had 1400hp before 2 year with common racing fuel when most tuners (supose and u) try the stock 74mm garrett Gt42 for first time to the 4g63 engine.
Please next time post something usefull to THIS topic.
Case in point, the average 42R car makes somewhere in the neighborhood of 600-630whp at 20psi. At 40 psi this number is generally only around 1000whp give or take a few horsepower. Our car with the 4202 on it was making 1050whp at 45psi with 20* of timing using VP Import. Based on what we have learned about the efficiency of the combustion chamber this is around MBT for the Evo. The 4508 that Lucas mentioned made 1117whp at 48psi with ridiculous timing for that boost level on that engine.
I am curious if the car ran the aforementioned times wasnt at 1460 whatever horsepower what was it making to run those times and what was the weight?
Aaron
Sep 23, 2009, 02:10 AM
#59
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Lucas,
The gt45 with 80mm > 108mm compressor wheel actually can’t produce more than 1250-1260hp at the crank. The thermodynamic map from this turbo is rated to 113lbs per minute at 60% efficiency and 100.000rpms (that means finished), that makes us rough 1200hp actual flow as map says.
Either 30psi or 70psi u can see more than 1280-1300hp at the crank. Look the compressor map 4,2:1 pressure ratio that is 3.2bar (47psi) to the engine that even then the flow falls down to 90lbs/min. The only that u will see is overspining and 2 times or 3 times extra heat at ur intake manifold making the turbo surging and choking. Just notice the compressor map better. How can u obtain 1450-1500whp from this small turbo? Not even Gt55 cant produce such horsepower.
Also gt42 have 1200rpms below spool to a gt45 to the same engine. What are u talking about having same spool? How can it be 74mm>102mm major wheel have same spool to the heavier 80>108mm? And what about the turbine wheel? There is huge difference between the gt45s 87mm wheel pressure ratio (T/s) P1t/P2s to the smaller 82mm wheel with smaller 84trim ratio.
Look the compressor map.
Please be more careful to ur next post and have a better knowledge what ur posting to me if u want our conversation be healthy.
Hi Aaron,
Its a chapter that need endless post writing from me and i dont have so much time, but few words will help u.
Frictional power losses are responsible 90% of matter of rpms only. U will have almost same loses from 500hp engine with same 85.5mm piston to a 1000hp engine with same piston diameter again, at same rpms. The friction losses are minus calculated 40hp max at 8000rpm to this piston diameter and the cylinder wall, even u have 1000hp or 150hp. Pumping power to 88mm and 94mm stroke is below 25hp loses no worth to talk about it. U can double the efficiency to a well design engine just boosting it extra 1 bar. Depends off course and ur turbo thermodynamic map, ur fuel properties, ur intercooler efficiency, ur cam characteristics intake to exhaust ratio etc. etc. , thats we we design diferent cams for every boost level we desire to work.
The turbo have a compressor thermodynamic map that its rated, for example u will have at 15psi 60celcium from a 0.69a/r 56trim gt45r, and at 30psi 70.000rpms 100celcium, how can u have same same intercooler efficiency at different boost levels having same efficiency engine? U must design all ur system to keep the same steady thermal properties no matter the boost. Different compressor housings with different compressor wheel materials than hipped cast u are using to Gt series helping keeping lower the temperature.
Just for the history, gt42 (gt4294s) produced from garrett for the truck DAF 95xF 12.6ltr engine in 1997 producing 380hp (using usual 70mm>95mm comp wheel) and the code of the turbo was 452229-0002, garrett releases in 1999 the 4202 for the DAF and detroit diesel again that produce 500hp from 6L60 engine with code 702885-0001 that had 74mm > 102mm comp.wheel. All the turbos had thrust bearing as at the trucks never exceed 36psi. early 2004 garrett convert the above turbos to ballbearing system, all the other specs was the same. 2002 garrett produce gt45 turbo for the DAF again 85CF model 12.6ltr that produce 480hp-2.800rpms again with thust bearing with turbo code. 721644-0002. Then garrett rename the turbos to GT series R, and before 1 year upgrade some compressor wheel from standard cast to hipped cast. Old style UTV wheels replaced from new one better design, for example the old 70>102mm from TV71 and the TMF55 74mm > 102mm convert it to new GT style same dimention inducer and exducer but hipped cast. All the above turbos are disigned for big engine displasments. Thrust bearing turbos blown apart after 40psi thats why garrett convert them to ballbearing systems.
The 76mm > 102mm that some guys place to gt42 are still old type from TV75 (6blade design).
Marco from Magnus knows very well what happend if u boost a old style thrust bearing system. He have made a lot of test to turbos and he knows a lot. Marcooooooo.......
Thanks
Spyros Panopoulos
Extreme Tuners
-------- Power Under Pressure --------
* Taking Turbocharging To The Next Level *
The gt45 with 80mm > 108mm compressor wheel actually can’t produce more than 1250-1260hp at the crank. The thermodynamic map from this turbo is rated to 113lbs per minute at 60% efficiency and 100.000rpms (that means finished), that makes us rough 1200hp actual flow as map says.
Either 30psi or 70psi u can see more than 1280-1300hp at the crank. Look the compressor map 4,2:1 pressure ratio that is 3.2bar (47psi) to the engine that even then the flow falls down to 90lbs/min. The only that u will see is overspining and 2 times or 3 times extra heat at ur intake manifold making the turbo surging and choking. Just notice the compressor map better. How can u obtain 1450-1500whp from this small turbo? Not even Gt55 cant produce such horsepower.
Also gt42 have 1200rpms below spool to a gt45 to the same engine. What are u talking about having same spool? How can it be 74mm>102mm major wheel have same spool to the heavier 80>108mm? And what about the turbine wheel? There is huge difference between the gt45s 87mm wheel pressure ratio (T/s) P1t/P2s to the smaller 82mm wheel with smaller 84trim ratio.
Look the compressor map.
Please be more careful to ur next post and have a better knowledge what ur posting to me if u want our conversation be healthy.
Hi Aaron,
Its a chapter that need endless post writing from me and i dont have so much time, but few words will help u.
Frictional power losses are responsible 90% of matter of rpms only. U will have almost same loses from 500hp engine with same 85.5mm piston to a 1000hp engine with same piston diameter again, at same rpms. The friction losses are minus calculated 40hp max at 8000rpm to this piston diameter and the cylinder wall, even u have 1000hp or 150hp. Pumping power to 88mm and 94mm stroke is below 25hp loses no worth to talk about it. U can double the efficiency to a well design engine just boosting it extra 1 bar. Depends off course and ur turbo thermodynamic map, ur fuel properties, ur intercooler efficiency, ur cam characteristics intake to exhaust ratio etc. etc. , thats we we design diferent cams for every boost level we desire to work.
The turbo have a compressor thermodynamic map that its rated, for example u will have at 15psi 60celcium from a 0.69a/r 56trim gt45r, and at 30psi 70.000rpms 100celcium, how can u have same same intercooler efficiency at different boost levels having same efficiency engine? U must design all ur system to keep the same steady thermal properties no matter the boost. Different compressor housings with different compressor wheel materials than hipped cast u are using to Gt series helping keeping lower the temperature.
Just for the history, gt42 (gt4294s) produced from garrett for the truck DAF 95xF 12.6ltr engine in 1997 producing 380hp (using usual 70mm>95mm comp wheel) and the code of the turbo was 452229-0002, garrett releases in 1999 the 4202 for the DAF and detroit diesel again that produce 500hp from 6L60 engine with code 702885-0001 that had 74mm > 102mm comp.wheel. All the turbos had thrust bearing as at the trucks never exceed 36psi. early 2004 garrett convert the above turbos to ballbearing system, all the other specs was the same. 2002 garrett produce gt45 turbo for the DAF again 85CF model 12.6ltr that produce 480hp-2.800rpms again with thust bearing with turbo code. 721644-0002. Then garrett rename the turbos to GT series R, and before 1 year upgrade some compressor wheel from standard cast to hipped cast. Old style UTV wheels replaced from new one better design, for example the old 70>102mm from TV71 and the TMF55 74mm > 102mm convert it to new GT style same dimention inducer and exducer but hipped cast. All the above turbos are disigned for big engine displasments. Thrust bearing turbos blown apart after 40psi thats why garrett convert them to ballbearing systems.
The 76mm > 102mm that some guys place to gt42 are still old type from TV75 (6blade design).
Marco from Magnus knows very well what happend if u boost a old style thrust bearing system. He have made a lot of test to turbos and he knows a lot. Marcooooooo.......
Thanks
Spyros Panopoulos
Extreme Tuners
-------- Power Under Pressure --------
* Taking Turbocharging To The Next Level *
Last edited by Extreme Tuners; Sep 23, 2009 at 08:57 AM.
