BBK-3B - my new favorite turbo
 

What's not to love about a turbo that makes 33 psi by 3800 rpm while making 530 whp at 7200 rpm on a 2.0L motor? In a kill-mode to kill-mode comparison, it kicked my HTA Green's butt everywhere, and it did it with a more restrictive intake than what I used with my HTA Green. The first plot is a comparison between my HTA Green and the BBK-3B for similar air temperatures. The second plot is the data log for the BBK-3B run. Peak exhaust manifold pressure is just under 50 psi whereas for the Green, peak exhaust manifold pressures at the end of a run were closer to 55 psi. The last data log shows a run for tamer BBK-3B boost settings. At this boost level, its probably making the same power as the HTA Green but doing it a much lower exhaust manifold pressure.

Definitely my new favorite street turbo.

Red line = BBK-3B, Blue line = HTA Green
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221415

BBK-3B datalog for the VD run
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221416

Lower boost datalog for the BBK-3B
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221417

That's awesome I was going to look into this turbo!

What gear are these runs in?

It says 3rd on the vdr.

Oops, yeah I missed that. Very interesting, seems to spool much faster then my jb green :)

This is the turbo. I'm done.

Are you using a 2.5 compressor housing?

Still going to dyno in April?

Interesting.

What do the VD logs show in smoothing 6?

I have the stock compressor housing (machined of course for the bigger wheel). It does not surge with my 2L motor, at least in the 3rd gear pulls I did yesterday.

Yep. Gotta get some real DJ numbers at English Racing. Plus, I'll have a new intake by that time. When I logged intake pipe pressure for a few runs yesterday, 4 psi of vacuum was being generated! Way too much vacuum. Its gotta at least be partially due to the intake, and its probably partially due to the fact that I'm still using a MAF.

It is a little peaky. I made 505 whp with my Green at English Racing, so here is a VD plot with smoothing = 3 and the Green calibrated to show 505 whp. Now the BBK-3B is showing a little less peak power.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221420

What actuator(HD, or stock IX)?

I could definitely use this on my life :D Great numbers

I guess you finally got it installed!
Nice. I think I am sticking with the 3B as well. Can't wait to se what it'll do on the 2.3.
I think the market will be getting bigger for this turbo seeing as how it is +$300 for a MHI housing for a new green then add on a custom O2 housing/Downpipe.....

Looks good!

Stock, but with the Help spring mod. One half eyelet of overlap. Exact same configuration (in fact the same WGA and spring) that I used with my Green and the BBK Full. It took much less WGDC to acheive the desired boost at the higher rpms than it took with the Green or Full.

I was trying to figure out how the hell your getting 18º of timing at redline.....then I figured out it was E85, at least that's what your sig states :)

Please don't tell me this is on 93 ")

I haven't put pump gas in my Evo in the last five years.

Which size turbine wheel was your green, 65mm or 67mm?

Very impressive M! Congrats on the new turbo! 33 psi @ 3800 (on a 2.0 in 3rd) + 540hp = Killer Combo!

65 mm.

What's opinion of the 3b vs. the bbk full?

would be interesting to see this one compared side by side with a BB red or even a JB red with the oem hotside and not the SS one

thanks for sharing this data. mad respect for blouch and CBRD on this snail. when a turbo clearly does everything better than an already very good FP turbo you get my attention. I am drooling at these results.

I love my 3B. I need some cams to wake it up.

Awesome results!

are there any differences in porting to the hotside between the 3b & hta grn??

Was your green journal bearing or ball bearing?

I figured you had a trick up your sleeve. LOL;)

The HTA Green came fully port-matched to the hotside inlet and outlet gaskets while the 3B was more of a polish job than a port job. So I bought a die grinder, some burrs, and port-matched the 3B hotside inlet and outlet to their corresponding gaskets. And of course I blended the larger openings to the passages like on the Green. I also did a bit of deep port work on the "smaller" volute. I doubt the latter made much difference, but I wanted to do it.

Journal. English showed there was no difference in power between the JB and BB Green.

No difference in power but response is better on the ball bearing units. Obviously you know this which is why you purchased the DBB bbk. The new green with the better housing and larger turbine wheel is a significant upgrade as well. I would say that you have an improvement for sure from what you had. I would like to see a new DBB green with 67 turbine and SS housing compared to the BBK 3B.

In another thread related to this same turbo, someone mentioned that the BBK-3B has gone through some improvements and that as a result the newest versions spool quicker than the earlier 3B's. Does anyone know what changes were made by Blouch to improve spoolup on the latest 3B's?

Maybe I am wrong, but I imagine that any significant improvement in spool would most likely be a result of further improvements to the aero design of the compressor and/or turbine wheels.

So, if the 3B has received upgrades does anyone know what exactly has been changed on these turbos?

fp said new housing spools 200rpm slower. and from what I can tell from results posted of roberts car they were comparing 93 octane TS spool results to E56 open scroll results with the HTA green. my guess is the new housing spools 400rpm slower. I dont need to see this comparison you will never see. the 3B is killing it. if you havent noticed CBRD turbos are never compared back to back to anyone elses turbo evo 8 or evo x.

Damn you guys and your E85 :*(

I was talking about power. The spool is less of an issue for me because I personally think that most spool too fast. Constantly in boost while cruising.

I easily stay in vacuum for 90% of my daily driving. Also, there is no tendency for this turbo to unintentially lightswitch into boost - its very proportional to throttle position.

Can NEVER spool toooo fast battman:apimp:

^^ This {thumbup}

I would rather spool a little slower and make more power out the top. My 2.4 has plenty of grunt for down low drivability and once it comes into boost it is a whole different animal. Although rolling on it in 5th gear an whooping people is fun on the highway. It also does mountains with ease. If the stock Turbo didn't spool so stupid fast we could have gotten cruise control! Hahaha.

great numbers

Are you still switching to Efr 7163?

2.4L is another story. You're a good candidate for the FP single scroll Green or Red, especially if you are looking for top-end power.

Since I'm near at the front of the queue for one, I'll definitely pick it up, study it, and then if I decide I don't want to install it, I'm sure I can sell it for exactly what I paid for it.

Is today ER dyno day?

I wish. Between ER's schedule and mine, the first opening is two weeks from today.

That's crazy spoolup for the 3b on a 2.0 ltr , I hit 33 psi by like 4700-4800 rpm which is probably better for me since I'm still running a stock block/ internals. At what rpm did you start your pull, like 3000 rpm? Also would the e85 help spool up a little?

Well I know now what to keep my eyes out for!

I hit the throttle at 2500 rpm. I think the difference is MIVEC+S2 vs no MIVEC+S3. The S2s are amazing for getting into boost at lower rpms.

Cool thanks{thumbup}

Congrats on these results and thanks for sharing. I'm temped to upgrade my bbk full now.

Could you explain this mod a bit more. What WGA and spring are you using and what do you mean by overlap?

I am surprised Chad has not commented on the great results.

I hadn't noticed the detail about your Evo being MIVEC. It makes sense what you say now in light of the MIVEC. Still, 30# by 3600-3800 RPM is quite an accomplishment with that size turbo on a 2L, with or w/o. :)

Its one of the most ghetto mods ever, but it works great for increasing boost holding capacity without causing boost overshoot. Buy this spring kit:

http://www.finddormanhelp.com/Produc...=spring&page=9

The big spring from the kit goes as shown here. The hook on one end has to be trimmed about 0.25" to get it to hold properly on the WGA can. Its a really strong spring, so be careful when intalling it. And turn down WGDC or MBC a ton before retuning the boost.
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221484

Haha! I'm glad I asked...that is awesome and completely not what I expected. Off topic but by the way the FIC 1100cc run like a charm and the car drives very smoothly around town. I modified the pump voltage at the same time and appreciate the recommendation.

When could you expect it to hit 33 psi on a non - mivec motor? This seems to be the solution to my autocross/road racing days.

hello everyone-

I was waiting a while for people to respond to Mychailo's review before posting-

I always like to gauge peoples questions and post as much as possible before we do- because I do not have the opportunity to police the forum like we did 5 years ago- our workload in the shop simply prevents it (im in bed now responding- much to the wife's dismay lol)

I am happy to see the feedback from MRfred- because of his engineering side- we strive to produce a great product with our Technical Partners at BPT- and havent stopped trying to improve our brand (we have just this week finished the first truly 100% ball bearing OEM housing GTR turbos capable of 850+hp)-

as for the BBK-B-BB- I love this turbo- just like I love our BBX-BB evo X turbo- it provides great transient response, great overall power- and is EXTREMELY reliable- We have yet to have a failure come to us- (there is one in question- and the reliability is being commented on in a negative manner- which really upsets me personally)-

The last Ball Bearing Stock housing turbo we had fail was one of our two test units- and they CAN fail- in testing- that was almost 4 years ago now---

Regardless we would like to see the turbo mentioned before people comment on "reliability" as that has been one of our strongest attributes since day one.

On other notes-

I tuned a BBK-B-BB last week on E85 that made 488whp and 401wtq at only 26.8 psi on our Mustang Dyno- thats doing work in our opinion ;)

The car could have easily made over 500 (it was on smaller S1 cams too) but its for hard track use and not daily driver- so it was on the conservative side-

Im glad people are enjoying our products and we will continually work to improve them- Mainly since the introduction we have done some SLIGHT tweaking to the blade contours and dimensions but overall sizes are all but identical-

I hope this helps-

CB

^ Great input chad!

Chad, good to know you are watching posts like this. Quick question about the reliabilty issues that seem to be out there. How would you handle a low milage turbo with damage like what has been experianced? These are expensive turbos, and I know I went with you guys over say a FP was because I believed in your track proved experiance.

Barring tuning differences, would you say the S2's spool faster than the Kelford 272's?

I ask because my spool it's slower than I like and I'm thinking of removing the kelfords.

Sorry, I don't have any experience with the Kelfords. You might have better luck asking that question to some of the more experienced shops, but more than likely you'll have to try a different cam to know the answer.

your profile claims you have a evo x. R u asking about the evo 9 cam characteristics?

I've been wondering about how the HTA Green and BBK-B compare to each other. Now that M has put up this data, it's all but decided. BBK-B for me. I've been talking about my 2.3 for like 3 years, but it's finally gonna happen soon lol.

Evo goes off the road for open heart surgery this weekend and I'm picking up a 335i as a DD.

Chad, you shall hear from me in 6 months or so ;) Gotta get the crank finished and yank the engine.

You won't be disappointed. I've been ripping around town the last few days, and its definitely a step up from the JB HTA Green in power and responsiveness. Sometimes I even find myself thinking that this is all I need. ;)

Mychailo,

This will be my 4th turbo if you include the OEM unit. I am done with modifying my Evo after this. I think lol

Lol, I forgot to update my profile.. Sold the X years ago.

Yes, I'm asking about 9 cams.

I do not believe this one bit.

I know this maybe difficult to recall, but with regards to off-boost, low throttle responsiveness, how does the bbk b compare to the bbk full you had prior to the hta grn?

Only sometimes. :D However, I am pretty happy with this turbo, so for the time being it will just be tinkering with different bolt-ons.

Its pretty much identical to the Full. Both have great off-boost responsiveness and power, but need a good DV/BOV to effectively deal with part throttle partial lift. The anti-surge cover on the Green hurt the off-boost responsiveness as well as making it feel a bit underpowered off boost, but the anti-surge cover on the Green shines in part throttle partial lift. There was almost no stutter with that turbo.

We just ran the new QR-J recirc Tial- on the softest spring- it is pretty darn good-

cb

Thanks Mychailo

Good to hear, I really enjoyed the responsiveness of my BBK Full but wanted a little more power. I will be sending my JB BBK-B to Chad within the next couple months to be converted to BB. {thumbup}

This is good to hear. there isnt a whole lot of good info on what the anti-surge cover does other than help stop surge. I have only seen one reliable back to back with only the cover changed. someone on the evo x forums tested both covers on EF3 and the results were surprising. the anti-surge cover clearly spooled 250 rpm slower. thats a pretty good chunk.

Edit: found the thread and it was about 200 rpm slower. post 63 has the dynograph before and after
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ing-plano.html

When I spoke to Chad he told me that the anti surge cover definitely robs a few hp and slows spool.
First I heard anything about the anti surge cover hampering performance but interesting to know.

The ball bearing turbo that was in question as far as a failure is here- with some very obvious items outside of our control-

we will follow up shortly!

cb

and yes antisurge covers typically rob power and are turbulent-

cb

Interesting, I remember English Racing posting good results from the antisurge covers, on a stock turbo at least.

Interesting about the anti-surge covers. I didn't know that.

I do remember seeing guys were making more power on the BBK Fulls here in CA with the covers IIRC.

With the way that the anti-surge cover softened surge, it definitely felt like it was also affecting off-boost performance, but there are other differences between the two turbos that I suppose could have affected the off-boost performance. I may try to summarize those differences tomorrow when I have some time.

Does the bbk-b bb turbo come with surge ports?

if not, have you been able to generate any surge with the bbk-b bb?

fwiw, i can generate some surge on my hta grn, if i experience such, i just dial down my pcduty in the area of concern for my ebc & problem is solved.

I would imagine such is the same if experienced with a basic bbk.

if the response is similar between the bbk-b bb vs the jb bbk, then maybe the bbk-b bb is the turbo for me...

Mine does not, but you can order the compressor housing with the anti-surge ports.

I don't have any problems with surging at all.

No sign of surge with my 3B on 2.0L. My Full would surge, and as you did, I just dialed down the WGDC to delay the boost threshold by about 200 rpm (i.e. from 3600 rpm -> 3800 rpm).

Mine is occasionally surging @ part throttle. When I get a chance, I will change to a softer DV spring and see if it cures it as it did with the HKS

No MAF, SD tune.

ok. I'm not getting any surge - just typical stutter from part throttle low boost.

The lower Manifold pressure is the story of the show. Good wheel design get's faster spool, best of both worlds.

Since you mentioned wheels, I might show the pics of the HTA Green and 3B turbine wheels that I have been meaning to post. The first two are the HTA Green and the second two are the BBK-3B. I'll be the first to say that I have no formal experience with interpreting how blade shape affects turbine wheel performance, but based on the appearance, I feel comfortable saying two things:

1) The BBK-3B has more svelte blades, so the wheel looks lighter. And it has a 1.5 mm smaller diameter than the 65 mm HTA Green turbine wheel which also helps reduce its moment of inertia.

2) The BBK-3B blade design is much more open and looks less restrictive. This is especially apparent from the top view. It looks like its much easier for exhaust gases to exit the BBK-3B turbine and should result in lower exhaust manifold pressure. Without having used the turbo, I would have guessed that this would hurt turbo performance, and perhaps it does in some way, but when paired with the 57 mm compressor wheel on the 3B, there is no sign of any inefficiency.

NINJA EDIT: My HTA Green is the older variant with the 65 mm turbine wheel. New Greens currently use a 67 mm diameter turbine wheel.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221944

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221945

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221946

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...hmentid=221947

Very interesting design differences, not that I know what it means :updown:

I think this 3B needs to go up against the FP red with the 64mm cover. :updown:

What are you using for boost control, and where is the vac line for the wg coming from?

I had part throttle issues with my setup (3b on 2.2L) that I just finished working out last night. I had run a vac line from the manifold to the 3port ebc, then to the wg. There were two problems with this setup:

1) If you ignore the ebc for minute and just look at the vac source to the wastegate spring, it is always trying to make the manifold pressure match the wastegate spring pressure. If you are wot, the differential pressure across the throttle plate is very low and the manifold pressure is basically the intercooler piping pressure. If you are at part throttle, there is a large dp across the throttle plate... but the wastegate is still trying to make the manifold pressure the same as it was at wot. Now your piping pressure is higher and the turbo is running at a low flow high pressure part of the curve (surge line...).

2) Bring the ebc back in the picture. I had my min load for boost control table setup at relatively low load numbers. My target load at wot was in the 310-320 range, but min load for boost control was in the 200-220 range. At part throttle, as soon as I hit 200 load the wgdc would start being adjusted to try and hit the target load of 300. Basically the wgdc would go up rapidly, even though my throttle plate was partially closed. Add this effect to that of item 1), and you can get some pretty high piping pressures at low flow rates.

Not only did the above two issues cause the turbo to run close to the surge line, but holding the throttle at 50% would result in an increasing rate of acceleration over time. Not good when you want part throttle in a slalom or steady state corner! By tuning the min load for boost control table, 100% wdgc table, wgdc correction vs tps table, and relocating my vacuum line to the i/c piping upstream of the throttle plate, my car is way more controllable and has no more funky behavior at part throttle. WOT behavior remained the same.

Sorry for the thread jack, but this may be useful info for anyone running a 3b, bbk, etc with part throttle issues.

-Aaron

Grimmspeed ebcs, installed according to their instructions.

https://www.grimmspeed.com/content/i...ne_version.pdf

Interesting. So you put the vacuum/boost line somewhere between the IC and the throttle plate?

Yes. I have an uicp with a bung to go speed density. I am still maf, so I put a tap in there for a vac line.

I have used the same location in some turbo applications other than Evo, and never had surge, until I had an Evo - yet never reasoned through or connected the dots like you did.

I have to think about what you said, and the difference, to understand it well, and will certainly try it.

Thanks for sharing.

I've got a spare bung in my UICP just for this sort of thing. I'll have to try it out.

Just wanted to put my .02 in.

I just hit 68,000 miles on my BBK-3B. Still running strong....

I put a boost gauge pre and post throttle and I have seen greater than 10+ psi difference during part throttle conditions. Factor that into surge and target boost calcs. I always liked seeing what happens when you go up a hill and you're in a high gear keeping manifold boost low and pre throttle will be opening the wastegate. For a turbo that hits like this id be sure to tinker with that!

just to illustrate my point as well as others in this thread. sorry for the crappy video but you can see that even at part throttle the pre throttle boost is already hitting wastegate which is 15ish lbs during this Secondary air system test.

To add to the boost control discussion, I ran my first autox event on Sunday with this setup. It was a test and tune, and one element was a 55-60 mph slalom that went on for days. It 8 cones iirc, so plenty of time to develop a steady state rythm with fine throttle control. Doing the above mentioned changes and tuning, I have never had the car feel more controllable in that situation.

To add to the 3b discussion, this was also the first event in the dry with the new motor on the 3b. I ran the 3b on stock motor last year and it was a great autox setup, but there was noticable lag in really slow digs. With the new motor I also had lag out of a few digs, but that was because I was spinning all four :) Love this turbo!

LOL!!!

@ aaron-

cb

this is very interesting video. i have been running wastegate line from compressor outlet or lower I/C pipe for about ten years now. I did notice years back car felt faster on a manual boost controller with the signal line coming from the intake manifold. there is pressure drop at i/c so signal is not the same pre and post intercooler WOT. at that time I never considered part throttle effects. so there is actually three distinct boost signal locations with varied effects. manifold, upper i/c, and pre i/c.

but this video open my eyes to something else. BOV flutter at part throttle. with there being such a large diff pre and post throttle its no wonder the BOV cant stay on its seat.

Edited:

Yes you have to chose your reference according to what you are trying to accomplish.

I know you like the type s so I'm sure you've nailed your drivability ;)

Edited

so now you have driven it some. could you ever go back to plain bearing for a turbo this size?

^^ That's a damn good question.

I went back to a softer spring and it solved most of the flutter. I only get occasional flutter in 3rd/4th around 3k rpm

I had similar experience @ ATCO. the car would hook up nice out of the hole, but as soon as I go to WOT, all 4 spin with a little sidestepping. I couldn't get better than 1.8 60'