I have stock injectors as well..

after full exhaust
afc, wideband
K&N filter

The next thing you reaslisticly should be looking at is upgrading the clutch.

after the clutch...Id say cams.

FMIC isn't worth doing with the stock turbo for the $ it costs.


after the cams, at high boost your going to run into a fuel cut issue.
there you have 2 choices...
1 reflash the ecu to remove the fuel cut and raise the ignition timing if running high octane

2 larger fuel injectors + tune the AFC leaner to compensate...that increases the ignition timing and lowers the airflow signal below the fuel cut.

either way works.

I haven't done any first hand testing past that point.

 

Your advice sounds logical, what AFC are you using or would you recommend?

 

DSmotorsport - thanks for your insight into this subject

Now its time for me to add some of my ideas to this subject

First - the SAFC is a great little device and with the right hands it certainly can yeild some super results. However - it has some serious limitations for tuning evos. Let me discuss a few of its short commings.

The SAFC adjusts the a/f ratio by reducing or adding to the MAF sensor signal by a fixed percentage. In most cases the SAFC will require at least 13 - 15 % reduction in MAF signal to dial in a resaonable a/f ratio after 6,000 rpms on an evo due to the significantly RICH factory OEM tuning maps. This 13 - 15 % correction has the very UNDESIRED consequence of telling the ecu there is LESS LOAD on the car and thus moving the tuning reference into a much MORE ADVANCED IGNITION timing area on the ignition timing maps.

The problem is when you run the more advanced - partial load igniton timing maps on pump gas you gain significant detonation which results in the ecu "hearing" knock through the knock sesnor and pulling timing. This results in a very rough power band and low torgue.

Here is an example of this which was on my own car - back last MAY of 2003 when I had first gotten my evo - this was with an Exhaust, Buschur Intake and bost cntroller with a safc



Realizing that without some controll over the ignition timing my car would be running rough and unsmooth, I decided to try out the only available (at the time) solution - the Greddy Eamange which allowed me to adjust the ignition timing while also correction the MAF sensor signal much as a SAFC would. You will note that I made the same exact whp - BUT - I was able to gain significant trq down low and also smooth out the power band



Now - you may say that this comparision does not relate to a reflash - so lets look at a test done by Buschur Racing comparing the Buschur Flash to the SAFC which they also sell

http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO_Stage3.html

On that page you will see a discussion on how the Buschur Flash increases trq and smoothness

and stage 4 results are here - again more low end power

http://www.buschurracing.com/EVO_Stage4.html

Finally - the SAFC can not present a soluton to the issue of the multiple fuel and ign maps in the factory ecu

The stock ecu has a feature which moves the tune from lean to rich and also adjusts the timing between two main fuel and ign maps. The problem is when you tune with a SAFC alone you never know where you are - which map you are running and in time your tune may be thrown off significantly when the ecu moves from one map to the other

Some of the other benefits of my flash over a SFAC are :

1 - Idel fix for cams
2 - Fuel cut removed
3 - Higher rev limit
4 - No cuttng of factory wires
5 - No installation
6 - Lower cost
7 - Nothing to break

Now - onto some logistical issues - MOST Evo owners do not have the equipment of desire to experiment on thier own $30,000 cars which they rely upon for daily transportation. Tuning with widebands, OBDII scan tools and your own but dyno requires experience and practice and a wrong move can have bad results. The reflash is geared towards clients who want a simple, easy, plug and play solution. They dont have to worry about issues and problems.

This is from Apexi's web site

"Due to the complexity of this product, A'PEX recommends having the S-AFC and other A'PEX electronics installed and tuned by authorized A'PEX Power Excel Shops."

A final thought - for those who like to tinker - my $199 through the mail flash - combined with a SAFC gives you all the benefts of a reflash - comined with the end user adjustability which you mention. I have many customers running 11 second evos with that combination. It gives you the ability to start out with a gdo base flash with the ignition timing fixed and the tune close to very small SAFC adjustments will be sufficent. When you add race fuel or additional mods a savy user can quickly fine tune the car with very good results.

I hope this has addresed some of your questions

 

Ths main disatvantage being that without INDEPENDANT control over each you are effecting one (timing) while you are adjusting the other

Also - the factory timing maps are very rough and uneven

 

Thanks for the input, probably be calling in a few weeks to get the flash also. Are you going to be in the Denver, CO area any time for custom tunes, or everything has to come to your shop?

 

I agree that a combination of both is a good idea

The main benefits of the flash to be used with an SAFC are

1- scaling of injector maps

2 - getting the a/f ratio much closer than stock maps - thus needing less % SAFC corrections

3 - Optimizing the ignition timing maps

4 - Making the gap between the two main fuel and timing maps closer so your tune will not change as dramatiaclly based upon knock and collant temps

5 - Giving you a car that can run without the SAFC (in case it goes bad)

6 - Giving you the ability to fine tune with your SAFC at the will of the end user to accomidate race fuel and or additional mods

 

I am actually thinking to try and come there for a tuning meet - BUT I am thinking it may be getting close to winter conditions there ???

 

I prefer the emanage with the pressure sensor option

The SAFC is a 2nd choice

I find the HKS unit too hard to use

 

I offer a full range of customized through the mail flashes to match all the comon and typical modifications - intakes - exhuasts - cams - etc etc

You send in a list of mods and fuel used and we select a good base map for your application

Of couse the custom tune is much better in all cases - however for those geographically distant or planning more mods in the near future the $199 through the mail flash is a big bang for the buck

 

Dynoflash mail in and SAFC is the way to go IMO. I ran 118.7 mph with this combination. I use it exactly as Al explained. It is tuned well with 93 octane, but when I run race gas I lean it out more with the AFR and it has produced good results. The power curve and torque curve are much improved with the dynoflash mail in.

Brian

 

I have buschur stage 1 plus Injen intake and upper intercooler kit(pretty much like Buschurs stage 2 if you want to call it that). Just running SAFCII and dyno numbers are very similar to others with Buschur stage 2 and Als dynoflash. Torque is right up there with horsepower. I'm pretty satisfied with SAFCII.

 

Good input Al.

 

Could you kindly post up a dyno sheet? I would be interested to see what it looks like with 91 octane.

 

One more flash advantage - with the Buschur Flash Stage II - dual stage flash is avialable - same flash has BOTH your race gas settings and pump gas tune

Here is the pump gas sheet - 20.5 psi bost - 93 octane



Here is the same exact car - race gas and higher boost



A nice option

 

Here is my latest dual stage flash dyno sheet

Mods on car were

Buschur intake filter
3" exhaust
Hallman MBC
Walbro pump
Buschur injectors

Red lines are 21 psi of boost - 93 octane with Dyno Flash dual stage

Blue lines are 25 psi of boost - 100 octane mixed in - NO Changes made to tuning - same exact dual stage flash

This car was so fast it spun the inside front tire all the way through 2nd gear - twice - (this was a first) - PS I love those '04 evos