Torque Question
Dec 16, 2001, 04:29 AM
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Torque Question
can someone please explain to me some simple stuff (as i am in IT/Design and dont know to much about all things mechanical)....
at the rolling road day yesterday Pondy hit his cars max torque (262 lbs/ft) at 3800rpm, where as my car was 303 lbs/ft at 5040rpm, can someone explain:
a: why is my peak point so much further up in the rev range
b: is this a good thing?
also on the print out graph my power curve is a bit all over the place, can anyone explain why this would be and if necessary how to fix it?
graph: http://www.unigraph-design.com/mimms/lee-351.gif
mods: HKS BOV, HKS racing suction kit, HKS Hiper exhaust, ralliart de-cat, Ralliart ECU, Magnex down pipe, 1.4/1.5 bar boost (no controller (yet))
read out: 351 bhp flywheel, 238 bhp wheels, 303 lbs/ft
thanks guys
at the rolling road day yesterday Pondy hit his cars max torque (262 lbs/ft) at 3800rpm, where as my car was 303 lbs/ft at 5040rpm, can someone explain:
a: why is my peak point so much further up in the rev range
b: is this a good thing?
also on the print out graph my power curve is a bit all over the place, can anyone explain why this would be and if necessary how to fix it?
graph: http://www.unigraph-design.com/mimms/lee-351.gif
mods: HKS BOV, HKS racing suction kit, HKS Hiper exhaust, ralliart de-cat, Ralliart ECU, Magnex down pipe, 1.4/1.5 bar boost (no controller (yet))
read out: 351 bhp flywheel, 238 bhp wheels, 303 lbs/ft
thanks guys
Dec 16, 2001, 05:23 AM
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Have you got the turbo elbow and downpipe as well? I noticed on my car mid range improved a lot. More torque in that range could explain that.
The Ralliart ECU and simple boost control (restrictor) could explain why your torque curve is all over the place. You need to fine tune it. The drops in torque could be down to poor boost control.
You have your peak torque at 5000 rpms, but is your torque at 3,800 LOWER than pondy's? Or have you just got more higher up?
I personally like it when torque and power increase with revs, it gives you a car that pulls hard all the way to the rev limiter, not a big overboost and you have to change up. What do you think?
The Ralliart ECU and simple boost control (restrictor) could explain why your torque curve is all over the place. You need to fine tune it. The drops in torque could be down to poor boost control.
You have your peak torque at 5000 rpms, but is your torque at 3,800 LOWER than pondy's? Or have you just got more higher up?
I personally like it when torque and power increase with revs, it gives you a car that pulls hard all the way to the rev limiter, not a big overboost and you have to change up. What do you think?
Dec 16, 2001, 06:05 AM
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i have got the magnex down pipe but no turbo elbow or boost controller.
my torque at 3800 is still over 300 so still higher than pondys, would i be able to fine tune the boost with a Blitz SBC-id (michealK??)
lee
my torque at 3800 is still over 300 so still higher than pondys, would i be able to fine tune the boost with a Blitz SBC-id (michealK??)
lee
Dec 16, 2001, 06:42 AM
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Lee
as you know from my post on the MLR I've got similar problems, meaning torque low down is not good etc. This is because with the higher boost the simple factory boost control via the restrictors can't cope especially when having a relocated battery as I have. The cure is fitting a boost controller. I just bought a mechanical one which only costs a 4. of an electronic one but does the same. As I don't need different boost curves this is a very good VFM.
But be careful. Especially in the area between 2750-3250 rpm when the boost builds up the Sports ECU is quite on the lean site. So increasing boost in this area must be monitored on the dyno to be sure of not running lean. In higher revs it runs quite rich so no problem there.
As you've already got the Magnex fitting the HKS turbo elbow won't give you much better torque especially not worth 450 quidd. For this kind of money I've get a map for a GEMS so no good VFM.
You should also consider fitting a high-flow fuel pump to prevent from potentially running lean. This won't give you an increase in power but a better safety margin.
I think with a bit of work the Sports ECU presents good VFM (I only paid 340quidd). There are lots of people raving about the Apexi fuel controller and boost controller. These are for sure good products but compared to the Sports ECU you still have the ignitation curve of the standard ECU which is still a compromise. You could fit then also a ignition controller but with this kind of money spent you could easily get a mapped GEMS.
You've seen the results of Barry with RC Dev. tuning. Not very impressive. Especially considering how he raves about it.
Cheers
Mike
as you know from my post on the MLR I've got similar problems, meaning torque low down is not good etc. This is because with the higher boost the simple factory boost control via the restrictors can't cope especially when having a relocated battery as I have. The cure is fitting a boost controller. I just bought a mechanical one which only costs a 4. of an electronic one but does the same. As I don't need different boost curves this is a very good VFM.
But be careful. Especially in the area between 2750-3250 rpm when the boost builds up the Sports ECU is quite on the lean site. So increasing boost in this area must be monitored on the dyno to be sure of not running lean. In higher revs it runs quite rich so no problem there.
As you've already got the Magnex fitting the HKS turbo elbow won't give you much better torque especially not worth 450 quidd. For this kind of money I've get a map for a GEMS so no good VFM.
You should also consider fitting a high-flow fuel pump to prevent from potentially running lean. This won't give you an increase in power but a better safety margin.
I think with a bit of work the Sports ECU presents good VFM (I only paid 340quidd). There are lots of people raving about the Apexi fuel controller and boost controller. These are for sure good products but compared to the Sports ECU you still have the ignitation curve of the standard ECU which is still a compromise. You could fit then also a ignition controller but with this kind of money spent you could easily get a mapped GEMS.
You've seen the results of Barry with RC Dev. tuning. Not very impressive. Especially considering how he raves about it.
Cheers
Mike
Dec 16, 2001, 06:53 AM
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Scoobymike
Controlling the boost electronically is better because you can get the characteristics you prefer. Whether that is worth the price the product costs is up to you.
You are right in the Mitsu ECUs being on the lean side. I found an AF mixture a low as 14. No wonder a friend of mine blew his engine! An APEX'i S-AFC lets you adjust the air fuel ratio. Definitely cheaper than a new 4G63.
A lot of people rave about how fast their or some car is. I hear so many people talk about how good the std Evo is, how fast the new M3 is, bla, bla. It doesnt mean **** to me and shouldnt to you. Dont let other people (including me) let you tell what's fast or not. You decide from what torque/bhp on you think it's fast.
Oh, YOUR Evo is not fast. Believe me!
Controlling the boost electronically is better because you can get the characteristics you prefer. Whether that is worth the price the product costs is up to you.
You are right in the Mitsu ECUs being on the lean side. I found an AF mixture a low as 14. No wonder a friend of mine blew his engine! An APEX'i S-AFC lets you adjust the air fuel ratio. Definitely cheaper than a new 4G63.
A lot of people rave about how fast their or some car is. I hear so many people talk about how good the std Evo is, how fast the new M3 is, bla, bla. It doesnt mean **** to me and shouldnt to you. Dont let other people (including me) let you tell what's fast or not. You decide from what torque/bhp on you think it's fast.
Oh, YOUR Evo is not fast. Believe me!
Dec 16, 2001, 07:20 AM
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Claudius
with the mech. boost controller you can get the characteristic you want. Otherwise it would be useless, wouldn't it. You can adjust how fast your boost raises, peak boost and held boost. You don't need more.
I'm talking about the Sports ECU and not the standard one when I refer to running lean. It only "can" run lean in the boost build up area. In high revs it's ok.
Regarding feeling fast. You're right it's a very subjective thing. In the EVO the perceived speed doesn't feel fast. Just use the passenger as a speed indicator
At the moment MY EVO is quite slow as it is stored inside my garage. With temperatures 12deg subzero here and salty roads it's not so tempting driving the car.
Cheers
Mike
with the mech. boost controller you can get the characteristic you want. Otherwise it would be useless, wouldn't it. You can adjust how fast your boost raises, peak boost and held boost. You don't need more.
I'm talking about the Sports ECU and not the standard one when I refer to running lean. It only "can" run lean in the boost build up area. In high revs it's ok.
Regarding feeling fast. You're right it's a very subjective thing. In the EVO the perceived speed doesn't feel fast. Just use the passenger as a speed indicator
At the moment MY EVO is quite slow as it is stored inside my garage. With temperatures 12deg subzero here and salty roads it's not so tempting driving the car.
Cheers
Mike
Dec 16, 2001, 08:00 AM
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Lee, Sbc-id will definetely alter the torque characteristics and you can speed map, which should give you more torque at the speeds you want it at by running more boost. It's not possible to map boost across the rev range. I'm not too sure of the Blitz was the best choice, I think the Apex would've been better for me...
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Dec 16, 2001, 03:06 PM
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thanks for the replys guys....
what sort of power are you guys pushing (i know it is not important, i am just trying to get a grip of how worried about the graph i should be).
are you all running uprated fuel pumps and regulaters? if so do you have to have the Apexi AFC as well to keep the thing in check
micheal: do you have the power-id as well as i thought that added speed related boost control to the sbc?? and can you map the apexi across the rev range?, would you realy suggest the Apexi over the blitz as i thought you were well pleased with it (claudius what is your opinion on your apexi?)
scoobymike: i only paid £500 for my sports ecu so i am well pleased with the figures, just worried that things are not looking to healthy engine wise, would you say there is anything to worry about from that graph?
what sort of power are you guys pushing (i know it is not important, i am just trying to get a grip of how worried about the graph i should be).
are you all running uprated fuel pumps and regulaters? if so do you have to have the Apexi AFC as well to keep the thing in check
micheal: do you have the power-id as well as i thought that added speed related boost control to the sbc?? and can you map the apexi across the rev range?, would you realy suggest the Apexi over the blitz as i thought you were well pleased with it (claudius what is your opinion on your apexi?)
scoobymike: i only paid £500 for my sports ecu so i am well pleased with the figures, just worried that things are not looking to healthy engine wise, would you say there is anything to worry about from that graph?
Dec 17, 2001, 02:56 AM
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Lee,
didn't have enough time to reply last time, I do now (at work).
Yes, I also have the power meter id and with that it's possible to map according to speed, which is a different way to regulate than the rev range. Both aren't the right way, the best would be to map according to revs and according to what gear your in at the time which would take into account speed and revs. Don't know if the Apex does that. You can move the torque peak on the SBC-id too by using the gain setting, I think in theory you one should be able to move the boost peak all the way across the rev range with that too, but that'll be more difficult than mapping it according to revs. I'm looking to get the harness for the Power-meter id to get the readings from the ECU but I'll still need to find out how it works exactly before I go and order it.
didn't have enough time to reply last time, I do now (at work
).Yes, I also have the power meter id and with that it's possible to map according to speed, which is a different way to regulate than the rev range. Both aren't the right way, the best would be to map according to revs and according to what gear your in at the time which would take into account speed and revs. Don't know if the Apex does that. You can move the torque peak on the SBC-id too by using the gain setting, I think in theory you one should be able to move the boost peak all the way across the rev range with that too, but that'll be more difficult than mapping it according to revs. I'm looking to get the harness for the Power-meter id to get the readings from the ECU but I'll still need to find out how it works exactly before I go and order it.
Dec 17, 2001, 03:15 AM
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Hooby: i am not worried about the loses just the power curve.
Mickael: the harness is only £25 so i was going to order that as well (not in stock until feb though), i just dont know if the blitz is more accessable than the apexi. in your opinion, if i uprated the fuel pump is there anything to worry about on that graph.
lee
Mickael: the harness is only £25 so i was going to order that as well (not in stock until feb though), i just dont know if the blitz is more accessable than the apexi. in your opinion, if i uprated the fuel pump is there anything to worry about on that graph.
lee
Dec 17, 2001, 03:38 AM
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I don't think there's anything to worry about, the Blitz will work perfectly and will be adjustable too, but I don't know if the Apex is the better choice after all. You'd have to find out how exactly the Apex maps boost, but anyway I suppose the Blitz will be easier to use than the Apex, so maybe all in all the Blitz is the better option.
Dec 17, 2001, 10:49 AM
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Lee
do you have any lambda/co readings from your dyno run? Giving advice by just seing the power graphs is impossible. I'd never recommend just fitting a boost controller and upping the boost without checking if the ECU can compensate (fueling etc) for it. On my mates car it was perfect when running the boost controller at 1.35bar all the way (340hp, 420NM) but as every car is different it's necessary to get it checked. Before I drive around in spring after fitting the Magnex downpipe, WRC cat and the mechanic boost controller I'll get an appointment to get it checked on a dyno. I'm more interested in the lambda readings and shape of the power/torque curve than in actual power as it will be anyway between 340-350hp.
Regarding the boost controller on its own it will give a steadier power delivery as you avoid the boost spikes. This is certainly a good way to improve your setup.
Fit an uprated fuel pump anyway as this will ensure that you'll always have enough fuel pressure at the injectors when it's needed.
When taking the above into account and modifying your car according to it you should achieve what you want, smother power delivery and more torque low down. Top end with the Sports ECU is already strong.
BTW what fuel grade do you use? If you use lower grade it's possible that the ECU retards and you can get these symptoms aswell.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Mike
do you have any lambda/co readings from your dyno run? Giving advice by just seing the power graphs is impossible. I'd never recommend just fitting a boost controller and upping the boost without checking if the ECU can compensate (fueling etc) for it. On my mates car it was perfect when running the boost controller at 1.35bar all the way (340hp, 420NM) but as every car is different it's necessary to get it checked. Before I drive around in spring after fitting the Magnex downpipe, WRC cat and the mechanic boost controller I'll get an appointment to get it checked on a dyno. I'm more interested in the lambda readings and shape of the power/torque curve than in actual power as it will be anyway between 340-350hp.
Regarding the boost controller on its own it will give a steadier power delivery as you avoid the boost spikes. This is certainly a good way to improve your setup.
Fit an uprated fuel pump anyway as this will ensure that you'll always have enough fuel pressure at the injectors when it's needed.
When taking the above into account and modifying your car according to it you should achieve what you want, smother power delivery and more torque low down. Top end with the Sports ECU is already strong.
BTW what fuel grade do you use? If you use lower grade it's possible that the ECU retards and you can get these symptoms aswell.
Hope this helps
Cheers
Mike
Dec 17, 2001, 12:25 PM
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Lee
you made me think. Maybe you are running lean there, the fuel pump not being able to supply enough at those fuel pressures. I have just received and started installing a Walbro fuel pump (RC). Will let you know what happens once I've got it in and set up.
The APEX'i AVC-R will adjust boost according to revs AND gear selected. You can even define turbo response time (to avoid fuel cut). It is a very sophisticated item, with a learning function etc etc.
you made me think. Maybe you are running lean there, the fuel pump not being able to supply enough at those fuel pressures. I have just received and started installing a Walbro fuel pump (RC). Will let you know what happens once I've got it in and set up.
The APEX'i AVC-R will adjust boost according to revs AND gear selected. You can even define turbo response time (to avoid fuel cut). It is a very sophisticated item, with a learning function etc etc.