View Poll Results: Which buildup would influence where you buy parts from the most?
I own Buschur Racing parts and want an unlimited budget build.
142
29.96%
I do NOT own Buschur Racing parts and want an unlimited build.
153
32.28%
I own Buschur Racing parts and want a budget build.
72
15.19%
I do NOT own Buschur Racing parts and want a budget build.
107
22.57%
Voters: 474. You may not vote on this poll
Buschur Racing Car & Driver Super Four Challenge!
Originally Posted by 4G63>OOOO
Wombat,
You're absolutely right...when you're talking about a Viper.
A Viper's a more front heavy car and has different handling dynamics than an Evo.
Read more here
"Strictly speaking, antilock braking isn't a racing technique, since most race cars don't utilize antilock braking. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) It isn't entirely clear that antilock braking will reduce stopping distance for the skilled driver; and 2) Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car, the disadvantages of which outweigh any possible advantages."
"I said earlier that it isn't entirely clear that ABS will reduce stopping distance for the race car driver. It is very clear that it will reduce stopping distance for the everyday driver -- except perhaps in loose gravel or loose snow -- but that's not its primary purpose. The primary function of ABS is to enable the driver to steer the car while braking at maximum effectiveness. But steering in an emergency stop is itself a new technique. Abrupt or severe steering movements under these conditions will, again, unbalance the car and may cause a loss of control."
Now, in the context of a race car (which is what I'm pretty sure we were talking about before the subject got switched over to Vipers), ABS isn't really advantageous. For a street car, that's a different story.
You're absolutely right...when you're talking about a Viper.
A Viper's a more front heavy car and has different handling dynamics than an Evo.
Read more here
"Strictly speaking, antilock braking isn't a racing technique, since most race cars don't utilize antilock braking. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) It isn't entirely clear that antilock braking will reduce stopping distance for the skilled driver; and 2) Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car, the disadvantages of which outweigh any possible advantages."
"I said earlier that it isn't entirely clear that ABS will reduce stopping distance for the race car driver. It is very clear that it will reduce stopping distance for the everyday driver -- except perhaps in loose gravel or loose snow -- but that's not its primary purpose. The primary function of ABS is to enable the driver to steer the car while braking at maximum effectiveness. But steering in an emergency stop is itself a new technique. Abrupt or severe steering movements under these conditions will, again, unbalance the car and may cause a loss of control."
Now, in the context of a race car (which is what I'm pretty sure we were talking about before the subject got switched over to Vipers), ABS isn't really advantageous. For a street car, that's a different story.
Did you know that the Anti-Lock System was introduced to Formula 1 to achieve better deceleration rates during braking. It was banned in 1993 to promote closer racing in Formula 1. How's that for the context of a race car.
I still stand behind my assertion that unless you have 4 independant brake pedals for each corner and 4 feet to work the pedals, you're not going to beat ABS. The concept is so simple I'm surprised that you're argueing. With ABS each wheel can be controled to it's maximum braking potential. Without ABS you're limited by the tire with the least traction.
Last edited by AbusiveWombat; Jul 1, 2005 at 03:39 PM.
Originally Posted by 4G63>OOOO
Wombat,
You're absolutely right...when you're talking about a Viper.
A Viper's a more front heavy car and has different handling dynamics than an Evo.
Read more here
"Strictly speaking, antilock braking isn't a racing technique, since most race cars don't utilize antilock braking. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) It isn't entirely clear that antilock braking will reduce stopping distance for the skilled driver; and 2) Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car, the disadvantages of which outweigh any possible advantages."
You're absolutely right...when you're talking about a Viper.
A Viper's a more front heavy car and has different handling dynamics than an Evo.
Read more here
"Strictly speaking, antilock braking isn't a racing technique, since most race cars don't utilize antilock braking. There are two primary reasons for this: 1) It isn't entirely clear that antilock braking will reduce stopping distance for the skilled driver; and 2) Antilock brakes add system complexity, cost and weight to the race car, the disadvantages of which outweigh any possible advantages."
"I said earlier that it isn't entirely clear that ABS will reduce stopping distance for the race car driver. It is very clear that it will reduce stopping distance for the everyday driver -- except perhaps in loose gravel or loose snow -- but that's not its primary purpose. The primary function of ABS is to enable the driver to steer the car while braking at maximum effectiveness. But steering in an emergency stop is itself a new technique. Abrupt or severe steering movements under these conditions will, again, unbalance the car and may cause a loss of control."
Now, in the context of a race car (which is what I'm pretty sure we were talking about before the subject got switched over to Vipers), ABS isn't really advantageous. For a street car, that's a different story.
On second thought there is no need for a thread.
From that interesting and dated article.....
That was almost 10 years ago when the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety (IIHS) made such shortsighted statement. Hell, I'd like to know who the test group was for their data...probably a bunch of blue hairs who got spooked by all the pedal vibration and buzzing going on when the ABS was activated.
From that interesting and dated article.....
The IIHS report, issued December 10, 1996, notes that in single-vehicle accidents, cars with antilock brakes are as much as 44% more likely to produce fatalities than are cars without the antilock system. While the Institute declines to give a reason for this, it seems to me that the reason is simple and obvious. I don't believe that it indicates that antilock brakes are ineffective or dangerous in and of themselves. The problem is that stopping with antilock brakes, in an emergency situation, requires an entirely different braking technique than the one used with conventional brakes, and virtually no drivers have had or taken the opportunity to learn this new technique.
Guys, it is extremely difficult for me to keep my mouth shut about this event. There is no way I want to burn bridges at Car and Driver and I gaurantee they are watching us (scarey)
The pictures of Robert and the smoke were taken while trying to stop the car, not having fun. No fun at all actually on that.
I said early on in this topic that I thought not having ABS would hurt us. Without saying the outcome of the event, I was correct. Not having ABS KILLED us. Just so nobody has to keep guessing, that is the ONLY change I would make given another chance.
I had read what some of you have typed above. "A professional driver can outstop an ABS equipped car." Well brother I am here to tell you that while it may be true it was not in our case. Robert doesn't claim to be a professional but I am here to tell you that he is one *** kicking driver. Best guy I know for the job we had to do. There were professional drivers at this event, I am talking PROFESSIONAL. Read the article, watch the TV show to find out details. Bottom line is, ABS is going on my RS and it is going on soon.
I have a set of BFG KD's on my RS that have less than 1,000 miles on them. They are complete JUNK.
I wish I could go on and on about this but it give too much details away. This was just a great event. I am actually in the process of trying to get into another event like this already. Unbelievable good time, unbelievable honor to be involved in it.
Robert drove a bunch of EVO's this year with the ABS fuse pulled on them to get ready for this event. Watching the car I say he did an outstanding job everywhere on the course without ABS, but was constantly trailed by a fairly thick amount of tire smoke. Downside to his practicing was he didn't have to stop from HIGH speed to ZERO in any of the cars he practiced in, that is what hurt the most.
I have tried stopping from 100 mph in the car myself without ABS, seating brake pads etc., and when I was going it I was thinking to myself, "Self you kick ***." (haha) Problem is there is no way for me to know how many feet it took me to stop, it just seemed fast and I could hear the tires stuck on the edge of lock up. That is what you want. In the case of this event, adrenaline pumping at 200% and knowing you have to nail these brakes as soon as you hit your target speed, it may have just been too much, obviously it was actually. We have thought maybe a larger more aggressive tire (which at the time I ordered ours were not available) could have helped, you end up having all the choices you (me) make second guessed when I believe bottom line was ABS would have solved it all.
I hope I haven't said too much. This has been a great topic for my/our shop and I really enjoy the interest level in it. As I have said, I just don't want to burn any bridges.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
(scarey) The pictures of Robert and the smoke were taken while trying to stop the car, not having fun. No fun at all actually on that.
I said early on in this topic that I thought not having ABS would hurt us. Without saying the outcome of the event, I was correct. Not having ABS KILLED us. Just so nobody has to keep guessing, that is the ONLY change I would make given another chance.
I had read what some of you have typed above. "A professional driver can outstop an ABS equipped car." Well brother I am here to tell you that while it may be true it was not in our case. Robert doesn't claim to be a professional but I am here to tell you that he is one *** kicking driver. Best guy I know for the job we had to do. There were professional drivers at this event, I am talking PROFESSIONAL. Read the article, watch the TV show to find out details. Bottom line is, ABS is going on my RS and it is going on soon.
I have a set of BFG KD's on my RS that have less than 1,000 miles on them. They are complete JUNK.
I wish I could go on and on about this but it give too much details away. This was just a great event. I am actually in the process of trying to get into another event like this already. Unbelievable good time, unbelievable honor to be involved in it.
Robert drove a bunch of EVO's this year with the ABS fuse pulled on them to get ready for this event. Watching the car I say he did an outstanding job everywhere on the course without ABS, but was constantly trailed by a fairly thick amount of tire smoke. Downside to his practicing was he didn't have to stop from HIGH speed to ZERO in any of the cars he practiced in, that is what hurt the most.
I have tried stopping from 100 mph in the car myself without ABS, seating brake pads etc., and when I was going it I was thinking to myself, "Self you kick ***." (haha) Problem is there is no way for me to know how many feet it took me to stop, it just seemed fast and I could hear the tires stuck on the edge of lock up. That is what you want. In the case of this event, adrenaline pumping at 200% and knowing you have to nail these brakes as soon as you hit your target speed, it may have just been too much, obviously it was actually. We have thought maybe a larger more aggressive tire (which at the time I ordered ours were not available) could have helped, you end up having all the choices you (me) make second guessed when I believe bottom line was ABS would have solved it all.
I hope I haven't said too much. This has been a great topic for my/our shop and I really enjoy the interest level in it. As I have said, I just don't want to burn any bridges.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David, there is no way that anyone without a whole lot(perhaps years) of road course experience can consistently stop better without ABS than with ABS with a brake set up like you had. True some pros prefer the non ABS but for us other drivers go with the ABS. I sold a Rothmans Porsche that had an ABS off switch and I ran with the ABS on whereas a relatively famous driver with years of road course racing experience in the same car switched it off. I feel much more comfortable at the end of a long straight, say the back straight at Mid Ohio, with ABS versus no ABS. Theoretically, your stopping distance may suffer a few feet but youwill feel more comfortable braking later and thus equal things out. Moreover you will not risk locking up the wheels and flat spotting the tires.
You guys are forgetting (or not talking about) about front to rear proportioning. Most race cars have prop valvs to send more or less pressure to the rear. You have to adjust the prop valve quite regularly since as traction levels change so does bias. The 05 evos have abs with ebd (electronic brakeforce distribution) which means the computer is sending as much force to the rears as possible as dictated by traction levels. This changes from corner to corner and even within a corner. If you get your evo set up very well with a prop valve for a particular track I think you could beat an abs ebd evo but it wouldnt be easy. Looking at the pictures of the white evo changing directions while attempting threshold braking suggests too much rearward bias for that particular exercise.
I think three cars didn't have anti-locks NOB KICKED MY BUTT when it came to Braking (with a $8,000.00/endless/HKS racing system pre adjusted at the HKS test day.....) I was comfortable with my ability to stop the car...then I saw the stopping zone was a 15 degree BANK in the middle OF A CORNER and I realized why the NASCAR boys WRECK when they TOUCH their brakes as they are trying to avoid each other!!
David and I talked long and hard about strategy for this event we chose thinner and lighter wheels tires than we could have to max out the acceleration at all speeds and I knew I could keep the traction in the corners with the DMS 50's..BUT we both underestimated the braking zone. David and I were happy with the road course, zero to 60, and the 1/4 mile section results so that part worked out. I was SO proud to drive David's car...the owner told me the words every driver wants to hear when he straps his helmet on.."DON'T WASTE TIME LOOKING AT THE GAUGES JUST DRIVE THE CAR!""
THANKS DAVID!
David and I talked long and hard about strategy for this event we chose thinner and lighter wheels tires than we could have to max out the acceleration at all speeds and I knew I could keep the traction in the corners with the DMS 50's..BUT we both underestimated the braking zone. David and I were happy with the road course, zero to 60, and the 1/4 mile section results so that part worked out. I was SO proud to drive David's car...the owner told me the words every driver wants to hear when he straps his helmet on.."DON'T WASTE TIME LOOKING AT THE GAUGES JUST DRIVE THE CAR!""
THANKS DAVID!
Last edited by robi; Jul 1, 2005 at 09:19 PM.
Originally Posted by robi
the owner told me the words every driver wants to hear when he straps his helmet on.."DON'T WASTE TIME LOOKING AT THE GAUGES JUST DRIVE THE CAR!""
THANKS DAVID!
THANKS DAVID!
That's freakin' hilarious.
The breaking on the car was actually pretty darn balanced as we had been swapping pads around with StopTech helping us out. The fronts would lock first when applied hard, not the rears. As Robert said, the banking makes it even more difficult to brake.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Not sure when it is going to air on TV. The magazine is the November issue which comes out in October.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Interesting facts from today.
The tires on the RS are completely shot, flat spotted and roll like a stop sign. Less than 1,000 miles on them, junk.
4-5 months ago when we were invited to this event we were given a list of what we could and couldn't do etc. There were tires that were approved and such and the tires needed to be purchased from the Tire Rack where they would receive a stamp in the sidewall for the event.
We chose to run a BFG KD tire, size 255/40/YR17. The tread width on a 9" rim measures 8.2". Tread wear rating is 200, so not a bad tire but not as soft as we wished we could have had.
One of the other competitors showed up with a new tire to the states that wasn't available when I placed the order for our tires. After seeing them Robert commented he wished he knew we could run them as the tire was quite superior.
Anyway, called the Tire Rack today as I need some new tires. This other tire is the Yokahama Neova. I checked out the specs on the tire and was quite surprised at the huge difference compared to the BFG KD's. Wear rating on the Neova is 180, so a softer tire. Diameter is the same, weight is the same. Here is what is interesting, the same size 255/40/17 on the same 9" rim width measures 9.9"!! That's 1.7" per corner or a total of 6.8 inches! That's like having another tire on the ground for traction/braking. Big difference. When looking at the other competitors tire size at the event and comparing they had 2.1 more inches of tread on the track per corner with this tire. That's, obviously, 8.4", that's more than one complete tire width we had. Explains a few more things.
Looking forward to getting the new tires, hopefully tomorrow. Going to datalog the car the way it is with the 93 octane they pumped in it at the event. Saving it permanently. Then going to drain the tank in the car and fill it for the first time with race gas, 118 octane.
We are then going to install our new high boost actuator and see what a real tune on some real tune will produce. I'd like to see the car run in the 10's on the stock turbo, it's already been done but would like to see this car do it.
We are heading to the track tomorrow night with the Conquest, going to try and drop the car into the 8.50's at 160+ mph. If I can get everything done on the RS might take it out and let Kevin have a whack at running it too. I don't think I can run 10's in it, I don't care who does it, as long as it gets done. That stock turbo just kicks butt.
After this round of testing I have a couple of new turbos to install and test on the car. A small quick spooling GT30 style turbo with our new turbine housing and the 21g. For me, I think the stock turbo is the killer set up for this particular car. Maybe one of these new turbos will change my mind.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The tires on the RS are completely shot, flat spotted and roll like a stop sign. Less than 1,000 miles on them, junk.
4-5 months ago when we were invited to this event we were given a list of what we could and couldn't do etc. There were tires that were approved and such and the tires needed to be purchased from the Tire Rack where they would receive a stamp in the sidewall for the event.
We chose to run a BFG KD tire, size 255/40/YR17. The tread width on a 9" rim measures 8.2". Tread wear rating is 200, so not a bad tire but not as soft as we wished we could have had.
One of the other competitors showed up with a new tire to the states that wasn't available when I placed the order for our tires. After seeing them Robert commented he wished he knew we could run them as the tire was quite superior.
Anyway, called the Tire Rack today as I need some new tires. This other tire is the Yokahama Neova. I checked out the specs on the tire and was quite surprised at the huge difference compared to the BFG KD's. Wear rating on the Neova is 180, so a softer tire. Diameter is the same, weight is the same. Here is what is interesting, the same size 255/40/17 on the same 9" rim width measures 9.9"!! That's 1.7" per corner or a total of 6.8 inches! That's like having another tire on the ground for traction/braking. Big difference. When looking at the other competitors tire size at the event and comparing they had 2.1 more inches of tread on the track per corner with this tire. That's, obviously, 8.4", that's more than one complete tire width we had. Explains a few more things.
Looking forward to getting the new tires, hopefully tomorrow. Going to datalog the car the way it is with the 93 octane they pumped in it at the event. Saving it permanently. Then going to drain the tank in the car and fill it for the first time with race gas, 118 octane.
We are then going to install our new high boost actuator and see what a real tune on some real tune will produce. I'd like to see the car run in the 10's on the stock turbo, it's already been done but would like to see this car do it.
We are heading to the track tomorrow night with the Conquest, going to try and drop the car into the 8.50's at 160+ mph. If I can get everything done on the RS might take it out and let Kevin have a whack at running it too. I don't think I can run 10's in it, I don't care who does it, as long as it gets done. That stock turbo just kicks butt.
After this round of testing I have a couple of new turbos to install and test on the car. A small quick spooling GT30 style turbo with our new turbine housing and the 21g. For me, I think the stock turbo is the killer set up for this particular car. Maybe one of these new turbos will change my mind.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
What was your impression on the new tires and what times did you end up running?
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
Looking forward to getting the new tires, hopefully tomorrow. Going to datalog the car the way it is with the 93 octane they pumped in it at the event. Saving it permanently. Then going to drain the tank in the car and fill it for the first time with race gas, 118 octane.
We are then going to install our new high boost actuator and see what a real tune on some real tune will produce. I'd like to see the car run in the 10's on the stock turbo, it's already been done but would like to see this car do it.
We are heading to the track tomorrow night with the Conquest, going to try and drop the car into the 8.50's at 160+ mph. If I can get everything done on the RS might take it out and let Kevin have a whack at running it too. I don't think I can run 10's in it, I don't care who does it, as long as it gets done. That stock turbo just kicks butt.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
We are then going to install our new high boost actuator and see what a real tune on some real tune will produce. I'd like to see the car run in the 10's on the stock turbo, it's already been done but would like to see this car do it.
We are heading to the track tomorrow night with the Conquest, going to try and drop the car into the 8.50's at 160+ mph. If I can get everything done on the RS might take it out and let Kevin have a whack at running it too. I don't think I can run 10's in it, I don't care who does it, as long as it gets done. That stock turbo just kicks butt.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com