Intercooler Tech - Bar and Plate vs. Tube and Fin
Dec 14, 2005, 11:11 AM
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Intercooler Tech - Bar and Plate vs. Tube and Fin
I've found this board is rather devoid of tech threads and factual data, so I've decided to start adding some. I'll start with intercooler tech since there was just an argument about this on a local board during which I realised there was a lot of bad information floating around.
The following info applies to air to air applications.
Tube and Fin - Pros
Generally weighs about half as much as a bar and plate core of similar dimensions
Generally less expensive
Generally less flow restriction within the core than bar and plate designs
Less flow restriction through the exterior allowing better flow to the rear of the core and to a radiator, AC condenser, tranny or oil cooler, etc. which may be behind it
Cons -
Those with less flow restriction than bar and plate cores offer less heat rejection
Generally have more fins which means they're more likely to be damaged by rocks/debris which cuts down on cooling efficiency
Charge air entry extends beyond core wall making it more difficult for air to enter the core cleanly
Bar and Plate - Pros
Generally off greater heat rejection than tube and fin design
Those with turbulators offer even greater heat rejection
Offered in tons of varying shapes and sizes
Less likely to be damaged by rocks and debris
Charge air entry sits flush with core allowing for cleaner entry
Cons -
Weighs about twice as much as a similarly size tube and fin core
More expensive
Blocks more airflow to radiators, etc. which may be behind it
Those with turbulators have greater flow resistance to the charge air
Remember that there's a balancing act between cooling and airflow restriction within the core. The more densely packed turbulators are within a bar and plate core the more cooling will be done as the air passes through, but the greater flow is restricted. Alternatively, air blowing straight through a pipe isn't restricted or cooled much at all.
-Mike
The following info applies to air to air applications.
Tube and Fin - Pros
Generally weighs about half as much as a bar and plate core of similar dimensions
Generally less expensive
Generally less flow restriction within the core than bar and plate designs
Less flow restriction through the exterior allowing better flow to the rear of the core and to a radiator, AC condenser, tranny or oil cooler, etc. which may be behind it
Cons -
Those with less flow restriction than bar and plate cores offer less heat rejection
Generally have more fins which means they're more likely to be damaged by rocks/debris which cuts down on cooling efficiency
Charge air entry extends beyond core wall making it more difficult for air to enter the core cleanly
Bar and Plate - Pros
Generally off greater heat rejection than tube and fin design
Those with turbulators offer even greater heat rejection
Offered in tons of varying shapes and sizes
Less likely to be damaged by rocks and debris
Charge air entry sits flush with core allowing for cleaner entry
Cons -
Weighs about twice as much as a similarly size tube and fin core
More expensive
Blocks more airflow to radiators, etc. which may be behind it
Those with turbulators have greater flow resistance to the charge air
Remember that there's a balancing act between cooling and airflow restriction within the core. The more densely packed turbulators are within a bar and plate core the more cooling will be done as the air passes through, but the greater flow is restricted. Alternatively, air blowing straight through a pipe isn't restricted or cooled much at all.
-Mike
Last edited by Inn-Tune; Dec 14, 2005 at 01:33 PM.
Dec 14, 2005, 11:25 AM
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I just heard something from a friend who also does tuning. He's noticed a bunch of bar and plate design cores for sale on ebay. In the product images they show the cores and you can see right down them because there are no turbulators present.
Without these all you have is a heavy core with poor cooling. Flow might be great, but most straight pipes do flow pretty well.
On a related note, beware of pressure drop numbers that are not accompanied by airflow numbers. If you have no idea how much air they were pushing into the core during the test the results are meaningless.
Without these all you have is a heavy core with poor cooling. Flow might be great, but most straight pipes do flow pretty well.
On a related note, beware of pressure drop numbers that are not accompanied by airflow numbers. If you have no idea how much air they were pushing into the core during the test the results are meaningless.
Dec 14, 2005, 11:28 AM
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that's very good info. and thanks for sharing. I've read similar pieces to this in numerous sources.
One thing I'd like to mention in addition, the extra mass of a bar/plate will act as a better heat sink vs. tube/fin, so for a short duration (until the core gets heated up)
say like a drag race, the bar/plate will have a further advantage over the tube/fin.
So it sounds like proper design is a very big deal when it comes to intercoolers. Which type of exchanger would you say has more "knock off's", or the types you'd see on ebay for sale cheap, that might have screwed up the design? Would that be bar/plate or tube/fin?
Also, which ones would be more apt to have radiused end tanks vs. squared off end tanks that really hurt flow?
I have my opinions on these questions, which I've already shared in other threads, so I'm hoping for more people to share thier views, and it sounds like yours comes from a knowledgeable background.
I've read similar pieces to this in numerous sources.One thing I'd like to mention in addition, the extra mass of a bar/plate will act as a better heat sink vs. tube/fin, so for a short duration (until the core gets heated up)
say like a drag race, the bar/plate will have a further advantage over the tube/fin.
So it sounds like proper design is a very big deal when it comes to intercoolers. Which type of exchanger would you say has more "knock off's", or the types you'd see on ebay for sale cheap, that might have screwed up the design? Would that be bar/plate or tube/fin?
Also, which ones would be more apt to have radiused end tanks vs. squared off end tanks that really hurt flow?
I have my opinions on these questions, which I've already shared in other threads, so I'm hoping for more people to share thier views, and it sounds like yours comes from a knowledgeable background.
Last edited by dubbleugly01; Dec 14, 2005 at 01:48 PM. Reason: updated information posted
Dec 14, 2005, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dubbleugly01
that's very good info. and thanks for sharing. I've read similar pieces to this in numerous sources.
One thing I'd like to mention in addition, the extra mass of a bar/plate will act as a better heat sink vs. tube/fin, so for a short duration (until the core gets heated up)
say like a drag race, the bar/plate will have a further advantage over the tube/fin.
So it sounds like proper design is a very big deal when it comes to intercoolers. Which type of exchanger would you say has more "knock off's", or the types you'd see on ebay for sale cheap, that might have screwed up the design? Would that be bar/plate or tube/fin?
Also, which ones would be more apt to have radiused end tanks vs. squared off end tanks that really hurt flow?
I have my opinions on these questions, which I've already shared in other threads, so I'm hoping for more people to share thier views, and it sounds like yours comes from a knowledgeable background.
I've read similar pieces to this in numerous sources.One thing I'd like to mention in addition, the extra mass of a bar/plate will act as a better heat sink vs. tube/fin, so for a short duration (until the core gets heated up)
say like a drag race, the bar/plate will have a further advantage over the tube/fin.
So it sounds like proper design is a very big deal when it comes to intercoolers. Which type of exchanger would you say has more "knock off's", or the types you'd see on ebay for sale cheap, that might have screwed up the design? Would that be bar/plate or tube/fin?
Also, which ones would be more apt to have radiused end tanks vs. squared off end tanks that really hurt flow?
I have my opinions on these questions, which I've already shared in other threads, so I'm hoping for more people to share thier views, and it sounds like yours comes from a knowledgeable background.
I see cheap versions of both types all the time. I explained how the bar and plate guys cheat. The tube and find guys cheat by using fewer and smaller tubes which is cheaper, but also cuts down the cooling capacity a lot.
I see where I wasn't clear in the initial post. Either type of core can have various shapes of end tanks welded on them. Some are squared off and others are radiused so air clings to the curved wall and heads for the edges of the core rather than just going straight into a small area of the core.
In terms of the core itself, some bar and plate cores use radiused ends (not end tanks) to promote flow. I made a quick drawing to illustrate this. You can see how the airflow will enter the core more readily when the ends are radiused rather than flat. It's less likely to collide and swirl, and more likely to curve in.
-Mike
Dec 14, 2005, 01:31 PM
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Here's what the charge air entries look like on a tube and fin vs. bar and plate. This tube and fin has lots of turbulators and the bar and plate doesn't have a whole lot, which goes to show that within each type there is a lot of variation.
-Mike
-Mike
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Dec 14, 2005, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ch47god
very nice, do you have overall recommendations for an Evo aplication?
You want a core large enough to avoid a bottleneck and provide ample cooling, but don't go crazy huge. I wouldn't recommend going more than 2.5-3" deep if your radiator is still behind it as that needs air too. This applies to 99% of you.
Fin count is also a factor. Some companies use excessively tight fins to compensate for a unit that can't cool efficiently otherwise. If the fins are packed too tightly you create a high pressure zone in front of the IC at higher speeds and air doesn't get through. The rear of the IC doesn't get cooled, let alone the radiator behind it. Needless to say...this can be bad, especially when you probably upgraded your IC because you needed more cooling.
Adding ducting can make more efficient use of the available real estate in front of the car.
End tank design also separates the good from the bad. Here's a decent example of radiused end tanks which promote uniform flow:
-Mike
Last edited by Inn-Tune; Dec 14, 2005 at 01:58 PM.
Dec 14, 2005, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by dsevo
I still didn't see a conclusion as to which theory is better. Bar and Plate = drag racing while tube and fin = road racing? There must be one that is better than the other.
Dec 14, 2005, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Inn-Tune
I just heard something from a friend who also does tuning. He's noticed a bunch of bar and plate design cores for sale on ebay. In the product images they show the cores and you can see right down them because there are no turbulators present.
Without these all you have is a heavy core with poor cooling. Flow might be great, but most straight pipes do flow pretty well.
Without these all you have is a heavy core with poor cooling. Flow might be great, but most straight pipes do flow pretty well.
care to show us some intercoolers that to promote better cooling over the stock intercooler? specifically bar and plate, please...
Dec 14, 2005, 09:38 PM
#14
Thanks for the info...
I have the Greddy R spec intercooler which I believe can handle up 500whp which is exactly where my target hp is. Im glad I didnt get a bar $ plate for my needs. The weight of my intercooler is only 12lbs compared to other bar and plate units like AMS thats weighs 21lbs...btw these AMS numbers came from another member on here. Thats why most if not all JDM track cars use tube & fin and they run roughly 400-500whp.
I have the Greddy R spec intercooler which I believe can handle up 500whp which is exactly where my target hp is. Im glad I didnt get a bar $ plate for my needs. The weight of my intercooler is only 12lbs compared to other bar and plate units like AMS thats weighs 21lbs...btw these AMS numbers came from another member on here. Thats why most if not all JDM track cars use tube & fin and they run roughly 400-500whp.
Dec 14, 2005, 10:00 PM
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This thread has some great information, but many different long-time industry leaders put the difference between the cores differently. 
For instance ...
The folks at Bell Intercooling note that the distinction between the core styles is minimal: http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html
The A.R.E. page is VERY informative with lots of good pictures and comparisons: http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
-Adrian
For instance ...
The folks at Bell Intercooling note that the distinction between the core styles is minimal: http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html
Originally Posted by Bell Intercoolers
Does one style core cool better than another?
No, almost no difference. With three decades of testing intercooler’s, we have found no appreciable difference between any core style or manufacturer. Keep in mind, that the merit of a core is it’s efficiency versus its internal drag characteristics. When sized for a tolerable flow loss, virtually all cores will produce essentially the same efficiency results. Perhaps a core with slightly less flow area per linear inch, or one with longer tubes, will need perhaps 5% more tubes to equal the best of intercooler’s with regard to flow loss and efficiency. Not a very important difference.
No, almost no difference. With three decades of testing intercooler’s, we have found no appreciable difference between any core style or manufacturer. Keep in mind, that the merit of a core is it’s efficiency versus its internal drag characteristics. When sized for a tolerable flow loss, virtually all cores will produce essentially the same efficiency results. Perhaps a core with slightly less flow area per linear inch, or one with longer tubes, will need perhaps 5% more tubes to equal the best of intercooler’s with regard to flow loss and efficiency. Not a very important difference.
The A.R.E. page is VERY informative with lots of good pictures and comparisons: http://www.are.com.au/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
Originally Posted by ARE Intercooling
As a general rule, with a level playing field (manufacturing quality, both fpi's, tube size, thickness, & a hundred other variables), bar & plate intercooler cores dissipate more BTU's than plate tube & fin & then tube & fin cores - per square centimetre. Please stop, go back & read that sentence again, as it is the most often asked question, but the most misquoted answer of all time. Please also note that it is very easy to change just one specification of a core to make it better than the other (forget plate tube & fin here), & it must be remembered right now that heat dissipation is only one parameter of overall intercooler performance. If there is enough area & volume available, I mostly recommend a tube & fin core to do the job, as it will get the temperature down close to bar & plate, but at less pressure drop & less chance of leakage.
The most consistent method of charge air heat transference is Extruded tube. This is because the aluminium is forced through the extrusion die during manufacture, giving a 100% wall to rib bond as there is no join in the material. The next most consistent is the "square" shaped fin, as it is stamped with a flat surface to fuse onto the tube wall, giving up too 10 times the surface area to bond to the tube over the least consistent, folded fin, which is the most common in bar & plate, & all that's seen in plate & fin cores. We have seen intercoolers where the tolerance of the fin fold width is too narrow & so the fin didn't fuse too the tube wall, resulting in no heat transference in that area. Also the fins can bunch up, leaving a gap either side, very inefficient. Another reason for the difference in the price of cores - quality control against sloppy manufacture.
The most efficient method of Charge air heat entrapment is folded fin, because louvered fin configurations &/or very close fin per inch ratios can be utilized, resulting in higher surface areas to "grab" the heat. Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop. It really comes down to manufacturing quality & specifications between folded fin & extruded tube efficiency as they can give similar results. Some folded fins have holes to break up the air flow, some have louvered fins to channel the air & some are plain flat, but they usually have higher fpi. ratios. Extruded tube dividing walls are either flat or have ridges running length ways for increased surface area.
The most consistent method of charge air heat transference is Extruded tube. This is because the aluminium is forced through the extrusion die during manufacture, giving a 100% wall to rib bond as there is no join in the material. The next most consistent is the "square" shaped fin, as it is stamped with a flat surface to fuse onto the tube wall, giving up too 10 times the surface area to bond to the tube over the least consistent, folded fin, which is the most common in bar & plate, & all that's seen in plate & fin cores. We have seen intercoolers where the tolerance of the fin fold width is too narrow & so the fin didn't fuse too the tube wall, resulting in no heat transference in that area. Also the fins can bunch up, leaving a gap either side, very inefficient. Another reason for the difference in the price of cores - quality control against sloppy manufacture.
The most efficient method of Charge air heat entrapment is folded fin, because louvered fin configurations &/or very close fin per inch ratios can be utilized, resulting in higher surface areas to "grab" the heat. Note that these also cause the greatest pressure drop. It really comes down to manufacturing quality & specifications between folded fin & extruded tube efficiency as they can give similar results. Some folded fins have holes to break up the air flow, some have louvered fins to channel the air & some are plain flat, but they usually have higher fpi. ratios. Extruded tube dividing walls are either flat or have ridges running length ways for increased surface area.