specific question for modded evo veterans and tuners
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
My own Dyno Flash evo is tuned the same way and to date made the most power and went the fastest of any otther Gt35R equiped Evo 8.
Last edited by blitz118; Dec 31, 2005 at 04:30 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
From our testing and experience there is no additional tuning or adjustment needed what so ever when swapping denatured alcohol which contains menthanol and 100% staight methanol. The function is nearly identical. You may be able to run a bit more boost with mentanol staight but the tuning parameters do not change at all.
I can come back to Pheonix anytime you are ready.
My additude is run your car at 90% power potential of the parts you have - never press for the last 10% in the tune as that leaves with with zero margin of error.
if you need an addditional 10% power - add more mods and keep the tune safe.
This same approach has made my race car a super reliable car even at over 600 whp
I can come back to Pheonix anytime you are ready.
My additude is run your car at 90% power potential of the parts you have - never press for the last 10% in the tune as that leaves with with zero margin of error.
if you need an addditional 10% power - add more mods and keep the tune safe.
This same approach has made my race car a super reliable car even at over 600 whp
Hmmm.....what is the possible explaination for the decreased/same preformance after this last flash+alky tune? Would the car be better off if it did not have the "extra" dyno tune immediately after the custom road tune?
You run a BIG efficient turbo in your race car, most of us has a small 16G. Thats comparing apples to oranges...
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Slow car - you are missing several points in your caculation.
Especially on stock ecu cars - aviodance of any knock or loud engine sounds is crucial to allow the ecu to maintain the desired ignition timing. In many cases lean tunes have resulted in some knock activity which cuases the ecu to pull timing.
Also - dozens and dozens of dyno tests with stock turbo evos have shown that the gains from running leaner than how I set the Dyno Flash tunes are very MARGINAL and slight.
Reseach and testing has shown me the ideal compromise a/f which yeilds 90% of the available power while leaving the car very reliable and safe for long term reliability and use as a daily driver.
While a few more whp can be found by leaning out the car - there are risks associated with this style of tuning - particularly when you are running an alcohhol injection system.
The main point is that on the track NO TUNER has had better results with his customer's car than I have with my tuning methods.
My own Dyno Flash evo is tuned the same way and to date made the most power and went the fastest of any otther Gt35R equiped Evo 8.
In tuning there is no black and white solution. Its about using experience and judgement to find a happy medium and compromise which works for the particular customer. I think the results speak for themselves. People with my tunes have zero engine failures - zero problems and go plenty fast.
Especially on stock ecu cars - aviodance of any knock or loud engine sounds is crucial to allow the ecu to maintain the desired ignition timing. In many cases lean tunes have resulted in some knock activity which cuases the ecu to pull timing.
Also - dozens and dozens of dyno tests with stock turbo evos have shown that the gains from running leaner than how I set the Dyno Flash tunes are very MARGINAL and slight.
Reseach and testing has shown me the ideal compromise a/f which yeilds 90% of the available power while leaving the car very reliable and safe for long term reliability and use as a daily driver.
While a few more whp can be found by leaning out the car - there are risks associated with this style of tuning - particularly when you are running an alcohhol injection system.
The main point is that on the track NO TUNER has had better results with his customer's car than I have with my tuning methods.
My own Dyno Flash evo is tuned the same way and to date made the most power and went the fastest of any otther Gt35R equiped Evo 8.
In tuning there is no black and white solution. Its about using experience and judgement to find a happy medium and compromise which works for the particular customer. I think the results speak for themselves. People with my tunes have zero engine failures - zero problems and go plenty fast.
I am not questioning your safe tuning methods......i was at the track when the car was run. Expectations were high BUT results proved otherwise.
Comparing your DynoFlash race evo to a stock car with minor bolt-ons.....
I was dynoflashed too....for a week. Safe, yes....fast, not really.
Originally Posted by SlowCar
Methanol burns with a 6.5-1 AFR and Ethanol/denatured alcohol burns with ~9-1 AFR. Target AFR will move switching from one to the other without compensating injector output.
Hmmm.....what is the possible explaination for the decreased/same preformance after this last flash+alky tune? Would the car be better off if it did not have the "extra" dyno tune immediately after the custom road tune?
You run a BIG efficient turbo in your race car, most of us has a small 16G. Thats comparing apples to oranges...
Hmmm.....what is the possible explaination for the decreased/same preformance after this last flash+alky tune? Would the car be better off if it did not have the "extra" dyno tune immediately after the custom road tune?
You run a BIG efficient turbo in your race car, most of us has a small 16G. Thats comparing apples to oranges...
I have generally found the Mustang dynos to be very close to the real world conditions
The power level he made on the Mustang dyno is within the range of what is expected on his mods. It is unknown how close that dyno is to real track conditions.
Carlos's times at the track are certanly a disappointment however he did indicate that the track preparation was questionable. If his car is going 12.4 at a bad track - with more practice and a better track he may be approching 11's with full weight and 91 octane which is not bad IMHO.
Remeber rational people with daily drivers do not flog their cars at the track and melt the clutch and break parts. 12.4 is not bad for a nice street driven car on 91 octane. I would like to see him in the 11.9 range, but his time is not bad considering the track conditions he reports.
Slowcar - what is YOUR nest time to date ?
In Carlos's case I would suggest testing the accuracy of his boost gauge as on the dyno and road tune i was using my map sensor to check the boost level - many gauges read a psi or two low which could explain part of the situation.
Also - a boost leak test should be done as on a road car with the engine constantly tqing over and going over bumps - with high boost 24 - 25 psi - very often boost leaks develop which can rob vital power and make the tune richer by leaking off measured air.
Originally Posted by SlowCar
Methanol burns with a 6.5-1 AFR and Ethanol/denatured alcohol burns with ~9-1 AFR. Target AFR will move switching from one to the other without compensating injector output.
Hmmm.....what is the possible explaination for the decreased/same preformance after this last flash+alky tune? Would the car be better off if it did not have the "extra" dyno tune immediately after the custom road tune?
You run a BIG efficient turbo in your race car, most of us has a small 16G. Thats comparing apples to oranges...
Hmmm.....what is the possible explaination for the decreased/same preformance after this last flash+alky tune? Would the car be better off if it did not have the "extra" dyno tune immediately after the custom road tune?
You run a BIG efficient turbo in your race car, most of us has a small 16G. Thats comparing apples to oranges...
The alcohol is still primarily a tuning aide which lowers intake chanrge temp and increases octane level. It is not a primary fuel nor is it inteneded to be so.
The tune and parts combo is designed so that IF the system fails the car will not blow up - or at least is less likely to blow up than if the tune was pushed to the limit
Originally Posted by SlowCar
You invited me to ride along for the road tune, i was focusing on the LM-1...at those AFRs, the car still knocks......we are cursed with 91 gas here. His suggestion of going to a 10gph nozzle should help him recover from the lost timing/rich burn.
I am not questioning your safe tuning methods......i was at the track when the car was run. Expectations were high BUT results proved otherwise.
Comparing your DynoFlash race evo to a stock car with minor bolt-ons.....
I was dynoflashed too....for a week. Safe, yes....fast, not really.
I am not questioning your safe tuning methods......i was at the track when the car was run. Expectations were high BUT results proved otherwise.
Comparing your DynoFlash race evo to a stock car with minor bolt-ons.....
I was dynoflashed too....for a week. Safe, yes....fast, not really.
He can add more alcohol and I can retune it - it will make more power but it will be more dangerous if the kits fails which is why we went from the original 15 jet I use in my race car to the current 7 jet
As far as fast cars - everyone knows there are dozens and dozens of my customers who are the fastest in their classes with my tuning product.
Thanks and happy new year
Originally Posted by fromWRXtoEVO
ct9r gs,
You wrote:
Honestly, your trap speed seems quite low for the power you're putting out. What was your a/f and boost on the dyno?
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Yes indeed , I must agree with you, in fact one of the reasons why I am going to another upgrade is because from the last time I went to the track my trap speeds were not improved at all.
I had trapped 109mph a few times before on straigth 91oct and NO alcohol. I was hoping to increase my trap speed by at least 2-3MPH after installing the alcohol kit, instead I ran about 1-2mph lower as average.
This has been a big slap in my face big time because in the past I made small improvements with every upgrade part I installed, improvement that went from trap speeds to lower 1/4 mile times.
I can't blame on no one because I am very happy with how the car runs, I am just disapointed with the trap speeds, it seems like I need more top end. It is too soon to determine why I did not get any higher trap speed, I documented that we had slight wind in opposite direction when I ran my car. On the same token, don't expect high trap speed on any car here in Tucson.
You wrote:
Honestly, your trap speed seems quite low for the power you're putting out. What was your a/f and boost on the dyno?
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Yes indeed , I must agree with you, in fact one of the reasons why I am going to another upgrade is because from the last time I went to the track my trap speeds were not improved at all.
I had trapped 109mph a few times before on straigth 91oct and NO alcohol. I was hoping to increase my trap speed by at least 2-3MPH after installing the alcohol kit, instead I ran about 1-2mph lower as average.
This has been a big slap in my face big time because in the past I made small improvements with every upgrade part I installed, improvement that went from trap speeds to lower 1/4 mile times.
I can't blame on no one because I am very happy with how the car runs, I am just disapointed with the trap speeds, it seems like I need more top end. It is too soon to determine why I did not get any higher trap speed, I documented that we had slight wind in opposite direction when I ran my car. On the same token, don't expect high trap speed on any car here in Tucson.
as far as your mods everyone goes about there mods different i would say the most bang for you buck is a bigger turbo hands down nothing compares to that.
race gas can cure alot of things heat related i ran a 60trim w/ the stock fmic sure i could have made more power with a fmic ect. but it pulled like a banshee compared to the stocker..
You know this whole situation with Carlos's car and this thread is very bizzare
Back in Dec 4 I think I street tuned his car and maxed out the available power at a rational 24-25 psi peak boost
We went back and put the car on a Mustang Dyno at Vivid racing and we made
363.8tq/323.3whp
with slight corrections
They say the Mustang dyno at Vivid has stock settings like Buschur's dyno in OHIO
David Buschur's white RS makes 330 mustang dyno whp with a larger 20G turbo and race gas and goes 11.5
323 whp on a mustang dyno with 360 tq should equal about 390 TQ and 360 whp on a Dyno Jet dyno
With the way the car was running if no boost leaks or other problems occured it should be 11 second capable with an ideal pass and perfect driving
As far as I am concerened - 363.8tq/323.3whp - on a daily driven car with 91 octane and a stock ecu is just about as far as the stock turbo is going - I am sure there are another 10 whp with more agressive tuning but on 91 octane I would not prefer to be the hero
Back in Dec 4 I think I street tuned his car and maxed out the available power at a rational 24-25 psi peak boost
We went back and put the car on a Mustang Dyno at Vivid racing and we made
363.8tq/323.3whp
with slight corrections
They say the Mustang dyno at Vivid has stock settings like Buschur's dyno in OHIO
David Buschur's white RS makes 330 mustang dyno whp with a larger 20G turbo and race gas and goes 11.5
323 whp on a mustang dyno with 360 tq should equal about 390 TQ and 360 whp on a Dyno Jet dyno
With the way the car was running if no boost leaks or other problems occured it should be 11 second capable with an ideal pass and perfect driving
As far as I am concerened - 363.8tq/323.3whp - on a daily driven car with 91 octane and a stock ecu is just about as far as the stock turbo is going - I am sure there are another 10 whp with more agressive tuning but on 91 octane I would not prefer to be the hero
Pheonix is 1250 ft
2,000 feet difference
for reference
http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/nh...on_factors.php
With a turbo car I think most of the elivation increase could be made up with increased boost but with a stock turbo that may be maxed out already there may not be any head room for additional boost
2,000 feet difference
for reference
http://www.smokemup.com/auto_math/nh...on_factors.php
With a turbo car I think most of the elivation increase could be made up with increased boost but with a stock turbo that may be maxed out already there may not be any head room for additional boost
Last edited by DynoFlash; Dec 31, 2005 at 05:34 PM.
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Remeber rational people with daily drivers do not flog their cars at the track and melt the clutch and break parts. 12.4 is not bad for a nice street driven car on 91 octane. I would like to see him in the 11.9 range, but his time is not bad considering the track conditions he reports.
Slowcar - what is YOUR nest time to date ?
Slowcar - what is YOUR nest time to date ?
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
The small proportion of alcohol we are injecting compared to the gas used means that in practice we do not alter the target a/f desired when using one form of alcohol or another - even 50/50 mix.
The alcohol is still primarily a tuning aide which lowers intake chanrge temp and increases octane level. It is not a primary fuel nor is it inteneded to be so.
The tune and parts combo is designed so that IF the system fails the car will not blow up - or at least is less likely to blow up than if the tune was pushed to the limit
The alcohol is still primarily a tuning aide which lowers intake chanrge temp and increases octane level. It is not a primary fuel nor is it inteneded to be so.
The tune and parts combo is designed so that IF the system fails the car will not blow up - or at least is less likely to blow up than if the tune was pushed to the limit
Originally Posted by SlowCar
besides intake cooling, octane boost, i think the latent heat of vaporization is critical too to be left out.
Originally Posted by SlowCar
the time in my sig is my last time. havent taken it to the track since i met you in phx. will get tuned one last time 5 days time. Will put new time when the track opens.
So let me get this staight Abner you and Carlos made almost the identical power on the same dyno (Carlos made a bit more TQ) and you both went about the same ET and trap speed on the same dyno ? - Both 12.4
The only difference was that You were tuned to a high 12/ 1 a/f ratio with ecutek and water injection and Carlos was tuned was tuned to a low 11/1 a/f on my Dyno Flash and alcohol injection
Also - you used worse pump gas but both cars are on pump gas
What this shows me is that both of you guys made similar power on the same dyno and both made similar times at the track
Originally Posted by DynoFlash
Slowcar - Carlos's car had zero knock - NONE what so ever was mesured off the factory knock sesnor when the tune was finished
He can add more alcohol and I can retune it - it will make more power but it will be more dangerous if the kits fails which is why we went from the original 15 jet I use in my race car to the current 7 jet
As far as fast cars - everyone knows there are dozens and dozens of my customers who are the fastest in their classes with my tuning product.
Thanks and happy new year
He can add more alcohol and I can retune it - it will make more power but it will be more dangerous if the kits fails which is why we went from the original 15 jet I use in my race car to the current 7 jet
As far as fast cars - everyone knows there are dozens and dozens of my customers who are the fastest in their classes with my tuning product.
Thanks and happy new year
I guess i'm just one of those hard to please customer. I just want the car to be as fast as it can go with whats on it.
