I want to blow up my engine!!! (Edited)
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
mugen,
Good post, atleast most of it I agree with. I do not however agree with you or Shiv for that matter about the road tuning. I absolutely disagree.
I've just tuned too many cars over the years on the road that have not only stayed together indefinetely but have won more races than I can count. Saying road tuning sucks is like saying tuning a car at the race track sucks, it is the most rediculous thing that can come out of the mouth of anyone with any amount of intelligence. It is flat out absolute Bullsh it. End of story. There isn't one professional race team in any form of motorsports that doesn't make correction to their tune AT the TRACK.
I do agree that finding MBT has to be done on a dyno and there are some serious advantages to ringing every last ounce out of a tune on the dyno. Once you have done this on one type of engine, like the 4G63, from there unless something drastic in that engine has changed, you can keep that same basic timing curve for the remainder. There are general changes that have to be made. Obviously I am not going to go into them all. Taking an EVO though that has a stock 2 liter in it, stock head, stock intake manifold and a stock turbo though the cars are going to hit peak boost/torque etc. about the same time. As Al said, putting the car on the dyno and tuning each cell to fine point the exact point of detonation on each and every EVO from variances in spool up, minor difference in the combustion chamber etc. isn't something that is feasible. It takes hours upon hours to do this to a single car. Nobody doing reflashes is doing this. The base maps are built and work too well.
Also, I don't even see why this turned into a tuning issue. The owner of the car has a rod bearing problem with no visible signs of detonation. I would have bet any amount of money it was from a rod bolt failure/stretch up until I read what Al found about the finding of the oil sludge possibility. Who knows, the owner didn't accuse anyone and said this entire problem is from him not monitoring the engine. I don't think it was the owners fault either, unless the oil was crap. Other than that it is a mechanical failure that is only the fault of the car being run at too high RPM's with more HP than it was intended to have on rod bolts that are too weak to sustain this.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Good post, atleast most of it I agree with. I do not however agree with you or Shiv for that matter about the road tuning. I absolutely disagree.
I've just tuned too many cars over the years on the road that have not only stayed together indefinetely but have won more races than I can count. Saying road tuning sucks is like saying tuning a car at the race track sucks, it is the most rediculous thing that can come out of the mouth of anyone with any amount of intelligence. It is flat out absolute Bullsh it. End of story. There isn't one professional race team in any form of motorsports that doesn't make correction to their tune AT the TRACK.
I do agree that finding MBT has to be done on a dyno and there are some serious advantages to ringing every last ounce out of a tune on the dyno. Once you have done this on one type of engine, like the 4G63, from there unless something drastic in that engine has changed, you can keep that same basic timing curve for the remainder. There are general changes that have to be made. Obviously I am not going to go into them all. Taking an EVO though that has a stock 2 liter in it, stock head, stock intake manifold and a stock turbo though the cars are going to hit peak boost/torque etc. about the same time. As Al said, putting the car on the dyno and tuning each cell to fine point the exact point of detonation on each and every EVO from variances in spool up, minor difference in the combustion chamber etc. isn't something that is feasible. It takes hours upon hours to do this to a single car. Nobody doing reflashes is doing this. The base maps are built and work too well.
Also, I don't even see why this turned into a tuning issue. The owner of the car has a rod bearing problem with no visible signs of detonation. I would have bet any amount of money it was from a rod bolt failure/stretch up until I read what Al found about the finding of the oil sludge possibility. Who knows, the owner didn't accuse anyone and said this entire problem is from him not monitoring the engine. I don't think it was the owners fault either, unless the oil was crap. Other than that it is a mechanical failure that is only the fault of the car being run at too high RPM's with more HP than it was intended to have on rod bolts that are too weak to sustain this.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
. especially with fwd cars you can only tune so much hp on the dyno, until the tires start to spin on the rollers or on a dynapack like when full race was tuning their black hatch and they got an error when they hit 700hp hahaha video was pretty funny.
Originally Posted by EVIL_EVO_VIII
Damn! I have similar sound like that but it comes from the driver side by the dash close to the windshield, i dont know if it a vibration after the motor mount install or what! I hope its not the rod bearing 
...Good luck with the rebuild
...Good luck with the rebuild
Originally Posted by ez76
Yes yes, let's nitpick the tuner who occasionally slums it on Dynojets when he absolutely has to.
The difference, Al, is that few (if any) of your base tunes were developed on a load-bearing dyno in any kind of controlled environment (unless you count highway speed limit signage as environment control).
So your base tunes can only be "in the ballpark" in transient map zones, and each of your road-based or inertial dyno-based maps necessarily has a significant percentage of cells that get less visitation than Brian Peppers on Fathers' Day, for precisely the reasons mugenmrx3 mentioned.
So at best, when you are "fine tuning" your maps on the road, you are tweaking an already questionable template, by the seat of your pants and with G-force measuring equipment that gets tricked by suspension transients and road grade.
And Mr. Buschur, with all due respect, it's not reasonable to compare Al's brand of road tuning to tuning at a race track, unless the customer plans to spend all their drive time between the two freeway exits the car was tuned on. How's that Mustang dyno working out for you?
The difference, Al, is that few (if any) of your base tunes were developed on a load-bearing dyno in any kind of controlled environment (unless you count highway speed limit signage as environment control).
So your base tunes can only be "in the ballpark" in transient map zones, and each of your road-based or inertial dyno-based maps necessarily has a significant percentage of cells that get less visitation than Brian Peppers on Fathers' Day, for precisely the reasons mugenmrx3 mentioned.
So at best, when you are "fine tuning" your maps on the road, you are tweaking an already questionable template, by the seat of your pants and with G-force measuring equipment that gets tricked by suspension transients and road grade.
And Mr. Buschur, with all due respect, it's not reasonable to compare Al's brand of road tuning to tuning at a race track, unless the customer plans to spend all their drive time between the two freeway exits the car was tuned on. How's that Mustang dyno working out for you?
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
AMS does not do this with their car, they fine tune it at the track, NOT the street. Think about it ... a 4th gear pull in their car would end up eclipsing 150mph. Even your average Evo in a 3rd gear pull can go 90mph+, not exactly the wisest/safest/legal thing to do on a public road.
l8r)
l8r)
Are you sure?? Well i guess that is why this video is labeled street tune?? Unless they have lots of trees at the track and cars piled up at the end. Now you think about it
http://videos.streetfire.net/search/...0AF7354E90.htm
Im no super tuner here but dont almost all cars start knocking well before they reach MBT? I was always under that impression... at least with my cars I always add more and more timing, make more and more power and the knock is what stops me from adding more. I dont need a dyno to tell me that
And yes, a dyno that could hold a static force would be great for tuning but is almost overkill. Its not that tough to tune a car for any load point you care about. Take your hill climbing with 4 people and a dog instance... do you really need maximum power in that scenario?? No. You could easily give it a known safe timing and fuel map for those load points... Do you think us "tuners" that do it on the street just leave those cells blank and hope we never hit it?? Once you get used to whatever tuning hardware your using and the car being tuned, its pretty easy to just look at part of the map and say, "Yes... that is plenty of fuel and not much timing... it is safe".
Im just saying for tuning a race car yes, a dyno helps but is not needed at all. Especially once you get used to the car platform your tuning. You push the car with what you know is to be a relatively safe AFR and relatively safe timing for the boost / octane your running. Start climbing from there. You dont need to tune the BEST in extremely low load sites because you dont need maximum efficiency of the motor at those points. Tune it for gas mileage for all you care. And for high load, strange sites (Uphill with lots of weight), again, you dont need maximum output for the motor... make it safe and let it be. I dont think the 4 people and the dog in your car are going to care if your running slightly rich and not making gobs of power to climb that hill at 70 mph
Again, a dyno is nice tool but is not needed at all. Its not needed for road racing, drag racing, or even making a nice daily driver map. It could help you learn about the specific car platform (seeing how it reacts with timing and AFR and where the engine "likes it"). But since we are all talking about 4G63s (And thier "cousins") I think its safe to say most tuners have been doing this for a while and already know whereabouts they can push most cars.
You made a good post about the dyno and comparing it to street tuning but I still disagree. You need to tune the car on the street (Or track) to get it fully dialed in. You dont need a load bearing dyno to map the less common cells. And in my experience (Not saying much here), you will start knocking well before the car starts making less power. Go ahead and try it if you want, tune a drag car to an unsafe level of timing with decent AFR (Slightly lean) and run it. Ill beat you go faster (Assuming your within a reasonable amount and dont destroy the motor while running) with that tune than you would by backing the timing just shy of knock. On top of that, you are talking about worrying about the car grenading in cells that arent fully tuned but you also talk about tuning a car on its border of destruction. What happens when the IC heat soaks? What happens when the ambient temp goes up 20 degrees? What happens when that C-16 has been sitting for a while? You get my point.
And yes, a dyno that could hold a static force would be great for tuning but is almost overkill. Its not that tough to tune a car for any load point you care about. Take your hill climbing with 4 people and a dog instance... do you really need maximum power in that scenario?? No. You could easily give it a known safe timing and fuel map for those load points... Do you think us "tuners" that do it on the street just leave those cells blank and hope we never hit it?? Once you get used to whatever tuning hardware your using and the car being tuned, its pretty easy to just look at part of the map and say, "Yes... that is plenty of fuel and not much timing... it is safe".
Im just saying for tuning a race car yes, a dyno helps but is not needed at all. Especially once you get used to the car platform your tuning. You push the car with what you know is to be a relatively safe AFR and relatively safe timing for the boost / octane your running. Start climbing from there. You dont need to tune the BEST in extremely low load sites because you dont need maximum efficiency of the motor at those points. Tune it for gas mileage for all you care. And for high load, strange sites (Uphill with lots of weight), again, you dont need maximum output for the motor... make it safe and let it be. I dont think the 4 people and the dog in your car are going to care if your running slightly rich and not making gobs of power to climb that hill at 70 mph
Again, a dyno is nice tool but is not needed at all. Its not needed for road racing, drag racing, or even making a nice daily driver map. It could help you learn about the specific car platform (seeing how it reacts with timing and AFR and where the engine "likes it"). But since we are all talking about 4G63s (And thier "cousins") I think its safe to say most tuners have been doing this for a while and already know whereabouts they can push most cars.
You made a good post about the dyno and comparing it to street tuning but I still disagree. You need to tune the car on the street (Or track) to get it fully dialed in. You dont need a load bearing dyno to map the less common cells. And in my experience (Not saying much here), you will start knocking well before the car starts making less power. Go ahead and try it if you want, tune a drag car to an unsafe level of timing with decent AFR (Slightly lean) and run it. Ill beat you go faster (Assuming your within a reasonable amount and dont destroy the motor while running) with that tune than you would by backing the timing just shy of knock. On top of that, you are talking about worrying about the car grenading in cells that arent fully tuned but you also talk about tuning a car on its border of destruction. What happens when the IC heat soaks? What happens when the ambient temp goes up 20 degrees? What happens when that C-16 has been sitting for a while? You get my point.
Originally Posted by TrinaBabe
Im no super tuner here but dont almost all cars start knocking well before they reach MBT? I was always under that impression... at least with my cars I always add more and more timing, make more and more power and the knock is what stops me from adding more. I dont need a dyno to tell me that
And yes, a dyno that could hold a static force would be great for tuning but is almost overkill. Its not that tough to tune a car for any load point you care about. Take your hill climbing with 4 people and a dog instance... do you really need maximum power in that scenario?? No. You could easily give it a known safe timing and fuel map for those load points... Do you think us "tuners" that do it on the street just leave those cells blank and hope we never hit it?? Once you get used to whatever tuning hardware your using and the car being tuned, its pretty easy to just look at part of the map and say, "Yes... that is plenty of fuel and not much timing... it is safe".
Im just saying for tuning a race car yes, a dyno helps but is not needed at all. Especially once you get used to the car platform your tuning. You push the car with what you know is to be a relatively safe AFR and relatively safe timing for the boost / octane your running. Start climbing from there. You dont need to tune the BEST in extremely low load sites because you dont need maximum efficiency of the motor at those points. Tune it for gas mileage for all you care. And for high load, strange sites (Uphill with lots of weight), again, you dont need maximum output for the motor... make it safe and let it be. I dont think the 4 people and the dog in your car are going to care if your running slightly rich and not making gobs of power to climb that hill at 70 mph
Again, a dyno is nice tool but is not needed at all. Its not needed for road racing, drag racing, or even making a nice daily driver map. It could help you learn about the specific car platform (seeing how it reacts with timing and AFR and where the engine "likes it"). But since we are all talking about 4G63s (And thier "cousins") I think its safe to say most tuners have been doing this for a while and already know whereabouts they can push most cars.
You made a good post about the dyno and comparing it to street tuning but I still disagree. You need to tune the car on the street (Or track) to get it fully dialed in. You dont need a load bearing dyno to map the less common cells. And in my experience (Not saying much here), you will start knocking well before the car starts making less power. Go ahead and try it if you want, tune a drag car to an unsafe level of timing with decent AFR (Slightly lean) and run it. Ill beat you go faster (Assuming your within a reasonable amount and dont destroy the motor while running) with that tune than you would by backing the timing just shy of knock. On top of that, you are talking about worrying about the car grenading in cells that arent fully tuned but you also talk about tuning a car on its border of destruction. What happens when the IC heat soaks? What happens when the ambient temp goes up 20 degrees? What happens when that C-16 has been sitting for a while? You get my point.
And yes, a dyno that could hold a static force would be great for tuning but is almost overkill. Its not that tough to tune a car for any load point you care about. Take your hill climbing with 4 people and a dog instance... do you really need maximum power in that scenario?? No. You could easily give it a known safe timing and fuel map for those load points... Do you think us "tuners" that do it on the street just leave those cells blank and hope we never hit it?? Once you get used to whatever tuning hardware your using and the car being tuned, its pretty easy to just look at part of the map and say, "Yes... that is plenty of fuel and not much timing... it is safe".
Im just saying for tuning a race car yes, a dyno helps but is not needed at all. Especially once you get used to the car platform your tuning. You push the car with what you know is to be a relatively safe AFR and relatively safe timing for the boost / octane your running. Start climbing from there. You dont need to tune the BEST in extremely low load sites because you dont need maximum efficiency of the motor at those points. Tune it for gas mileage for all you care. And for high load, strange sites (Uphill with lots of weight), again, you dont need maximum output for the motor... make it safe and let it be. I dont think the 4 people and the dog in your car are going to care if your running slightly rich and not making gobs of power to climb that hill at 70 mph
Again, a dyno is nice tool but is not needed at all. Its not needed for road racing, drag racing, or even making a nice daily driver map. It could help you learn about the specific car platform (seeing how it reacts with timing and AFR and where the engine "likes it"). But since we are all talking about 4G63s (And thier "cousins") I think its safe to say most tuners have been doing this for a while and already know whereabouts they can push most cars.
You made a good post about the dyno and comparing it to street tuning but I still disagree. You need to tune the car on the street (Or track) to get it fully dialed in. You dont need a load bearing dyno to map the less common cells. And in my experience (Not saying much here), you will start knocking well before the car starts making less power. Go ahead and try it if you want, tune a drag car to an unsafe level of timing with decent AFR (Slightly lean) and run it. Ill beat you go faster (Assuming your within a reasonable amount and dont destroy the motor while running) with that tune than you would by backing the timing just shy of knock. On top of that, you are talking about worrying about the car grenading in cells that arent fully tuned but you also talk about tuning a car on its border of destruction. What happens when the IC heat soaks? What happens when the ambient temp goes up 20 degrees? What happens when that C-16 has been sitting for a while? You get my point.
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
I didn't say that they never street tune ... they just don't do a full 4th or 5th gear pull on the street to tune. That kind of activity is reserved for the dyno and the 1/4 mile track.
l8r)
l8r)
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My original post was in response to what TrinaBabe posted:
1) Its not hard to hit every cell with road tuning
2) I would always rather tune my car on a track than on a dyno
3) On a dyno you dont have any real world characteristics
The post was not directed at Dynoflash. Road tuning after a proper dyno tuning session is ideal if time permits. But saying that road tuning instead of dyno tuning is better makes no sense. If that was the case then there would be no need for tuning shops to own a dyno. And buying a dyno would be a waste of money.
Dynoflash stated that all his R&D for his base maps were done on a dyno and the road tuning was performed on various customer's car to make minor adjustments due to different mods on each car. That's fine, the initial legwork was done on a dyno and the road tune was for minor adjustments. My original argument was that strictly road tuning rather than dyno tuning is not the right way to properly tune a car and it can be dangerous.
If a customer came to you with 911 turbo and a motec with no base maps, you think he's going to be happy when you tell him that you're going to build his based map and completely tune his car from scratch by taking his car out for a road tune--i don't think so.
As far as Dynojet is concern, yes i would say it's an inferior chassis dyno. It's only good for a sweep test and a final hp/tq number. And that number is always inflated. No dyno in the world read as high as the Dynojet. Why do you think dynojet is coming out with the 224xLC and 424xLC. The LC model comes with a Eddy Load Current unit for steady state tuning. It's a move in the right direction, but their still behind the rest of the other loading dynos. If their inertia dyno was all that great they wouldn't of attempted to add-on a loading unit. Dynojet may have sold more than a few 1000 inertia dynos but i can tell you that 99% of them are in the US.
I hate to say it but we're behind the rest of the world in the tuning device market. Just look at all the popular ECUs in the US market, Most of them are from Australia, UK, or Europe, Asia. i.e. Motec, Autronic, Haltech, AEM EMS (Based on the GEMS ECU of UK), ECUTEk, TechTom, Revo,Turbotec,Evotech.
Dynojet and Dynocom (Canada) are the only two inertia dyno that i know of. The rest of the chassis dyno are all loading dyno(eddy current, waterbrake, hydraulic, etc):
Dynapack, DynoDynamics, DTS (Aus), Rototest, Superflow, Dynomite, Mustang, Maha, Bosch, Vane, Dynolog, Dynatest, Clayton, Vamag, Tayor, and the list goes on and on. If the inertia dyno was all that, why is the rest of the world not buliding it. But if you had a choice of just road tuning or tuning on a dynojet by all means use the dynojet.
Again, i apologize if anyone feels that my post was directed at them personally. I just wanted to educate the easily-influence members of this board, that just because one person does things one way does not necessarilly mean it's the right way. A forum like this can provide a lot of useful information, but we all need to filter out information that's valid and useful and ignore things that makes no sense.
So let's end this discussion and get back to the "blown motor"
1) Its not hard to hit every cell with road tuning
2) I would always rather tune my car on a track than on a dyno
3) On a dyno you dont have any real world characteristics
The post was not directed at Dynoflash. Road tuning after a proper dyno tuning session is ideal if time permits. But saying that road tuning instead of dyno tuning is better makes no sense. If that was the case then there would be no need for tuning shops to own a dyno. And buying a dyno would be a waste of money.
Dynoflash stated that all his R&D for his base maps were done on a dyno and the road tuning was performed on various customer's car to make minor adjustments due to different mods on each car. That's fine, the initial legwork was done on a dyno and the road tune was for minor adjustments. My original argument was that strictly road tuning rather than dyno tuning is not the right way to properly tune a car and it can be dangerous.
If a customer came to you with 911 turbo and a motec with no base maps, you think he's going to be happy when you tell him that you're going to build his based map and completely tune his car from scratch by taking his car out for a road tune--i don't think so.
As far as Dynojet is concern, yes i would say it's an inferior chassis dyno. It's only good for a sweep test and a final hp/tq number. And that number is always inflated. No dyno in the world read as high as the Dynojet. Why do you think dynojet is coming out with the 224xLC and 424xLC. The LC model comes with a Eddy Load Current unit for steady state tuning. It's a move in the right direction, but their still behind the rest of the other loading dynos. If their inertia dyno was all that great they wouldn't of attempted to add-on a loading unit. Dynojet may have sold more than a few 1000 inertia dynos but i can tell you that 99% of them are in the US.
I hate to say it but we're behind the rest of the world in the tuning device market. Just look at all the popular ECUs in the US market, Most of them are from Australia, UK, or Europe, Asia. i.e. Motec, Autronic, Haltech, AEM EMS (Based on the GEMS ECU of UK), ECUTEk, TechTom, Revo,Turbotec,Evotech.
Dynojet and Dynocom (Canada) are the only two inertia dyno that i know of. The rest of the chassis dyno are all loading dyno(eddy current, waterbrake, hydraulic, etc):
Dynapack, DynoDynamics, DTS (Aus), Rototest, Superflow, Dynomite, Mustang, Maha, Bosch, Vane, Dynolog, Dynatest, Clayton, Vamag, Tayor, and the list goes on and on. If the inertia dyno was all that, why is the rest of the world not buliding it. But if you had a choice of just road tuning or tuning on a dynojet by all means use the dynojet.
Again, i apologize if anyone feels that my post was directed at them personally. I just wanted to educate the easily-influence members of this board, that just because one person does things one way does not necessarilly mean it's the right way. A forum like this can provide a lot of useful information, but we all need to filter out information that's valid and useful and ignore things that makes no sense.
So let's end this discussion and get back to the "blown motor"
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Threads such as these are very informative and important for our members to reference. The originator did not mention a specific tuner nor assign blame and there is no need for vendor's to defend. Mail in flashes have been successfully used for years on EVo's and a safe way to gain additional power over the factory tune. If you have a competent tuner nearby with a chassis dyno then consider that and the benefits of tuning under controlled parameters.
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.
Bob....
Speedlimit...
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired
But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.Bob....
Speedlimit...
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Originally Posted by
That is basically what you are saying when you don't monitor or manage your Evo properly.
I just want to share my experience with the rest of the community here so someone possibly won't make the same mistake I did:
I have had my Evo since April '04 and I have loved every minute of it. The car has been fantastic and didn't require anything from me except regular maintenance and good gas. I put my exhaust on, intake, MBC, flashed (for safety
), and got my fuel pump. Now someone tell me that is excessive modding....I thought that I was running within a very safe region of the engine and that "there are plenty of guys making more power then me and their cars can handle it" This statement will kill your engine and your bank account.
It killed mine and now my bank account is quickly getting smaller. Driving around one day I started getting a ticking sound. I ignored it since it sounded like it was coming from the dash area and a ticking dash on an Evo should come as no surprise to anyone reading this. Well, that was the slow destruction of my rod bearing eventually causing rod knock once the bearing wore down enough.
What I did wrong was:
1. Trusted the internet
Most people on the internet know just as much as you or less. Do your own research and become more savvy so you can question the advice and formulate your own hypothesis. Don't take anything for face value!
2. Trusted a flash
A flash is a great way to make power and very economical. The problem is I never monitored the engine parameters. No WB O2, no data logging, no oil pressure gauge, oil temp. I just thought that everything would be fine since I was flashed for my mods. I was very wrong!
3. Trusted people who's intent is to make money off of me
"Of course this mod will work with your setup" is what the vendor will say. Well no ****!!! If he says it won't work then you won't buy it.
Gentlemen, make sure that you are doing your due diligence to ensure your car i running properly and smoothly. Just because someone else's car is making the same ticking noise doesn't mean that it's supposed to be there. Here is a short list of things you should be doing for your car right now.
Ensure your engine monitoring is up to par
Monitor everything! I will say it again...Monitor everything! I always hated the look of 1500 gauges all over the car but it's worth it. Also, find a way to log it. With out good data logging all your gauges will be worthless if you can't reference it to a particular condition or parameter.
Understand everything you are doing to the engine before you do it
Don't take a vendor's word for it! Do your own research and make sure you understand what you are changing and the effects it was have on the rest of the car/drivetrain. Ex. Going with high lift cams and no springs is not a good idea Ex2. Putting a MBC w/o management and fueling is a very bad idea. Ex3. Putting in clutch that has 2600 lbs pressure plate...not a good idea
Ensure your engine management is correct
Make sure you understand what changes are being made to your ECU/EMS before you or your tuner does them. Ask tons of questions and if your tuner won't explain everything to you I suggest you leave immediately. You have to understand what is going on and why they are making a change. Remember that this is your car and if it dies the tuner is not going to pay for it (most make you sign a disclaimer for this exact reason).
There seem to be an influx of spun bearings and dead engines on EvoM lately and I hope this may help just one person not have to spend the ridiculous amounts of money that I am shelling out right now.
Have fun and speed safely!
-Bakari
I just want to share my experience with the rest of the community here so someone possibly won't make the same mistake I did:
I have had my Evo since April '04 and I have loved every minute of it. The car has been fantastic and didn't require anything from me except regular maintenance and good gas. I put my exhaust on, intake, MBC, flashed (for safety
), and got my fuel pump. Now someone tell me that is excessive modding....I thought that I was running within a very safe region of the engine and that "there are plenty of guys making more power then me and their cars can handle it" This statement will kill your engine and your bank account.It killed mine and now my bank account is quickly getting smaller. Driving around one day I started getting a ticking sound. I ignored it since it sounded like it was coming from the dash area and a ticking dash on an Evo should come as no surprise to anyone reading this. Well, that was the slow destruction of my rod bearing eventually causing rod knock once the bearing wore down enough.
What I did wrong was:
1. Trusted the internet
Most people on the internet know just as much as you or less. Do your own research and become more savvy so you can question the advice and formulate your own hypothesis. Don't take anything for face value!
2. Trusted a flash
A flash is a great way to make power and very economical. The problem is I never monitored the engine parameters. No WB O2, no data logging, no oil pressure gauge, oil temp. I just thought that everything would be fine since I was flashed for my mods. I was very wrong!
3. Trusted people who's intent is to make money off of me
"Of course this mod will work with your setup" is what the vendor will say. Well no ****!!! If he says it won't work then you won't buy it.
Gentlemen, make sure that you are doing your due diligence to ensure your car i running properly and smoothly. Just because someone else's car is making the same ticking noise doesn't mean that it's supposed to be there. Here is a short list of things you should be doing for your car right now.
Ensure your engine monitoring is up to par
Monitor everything! I will say it again...Monitor everything! I always hated the look of 1500 gauges all over the car but it's worth it. Also, find a way to log it. With out good data logging all your gauges will be worthless if you can't reference it to a particular condition or parameter.
Understand everything you are doing to the engine before you do it
Don't take a vendor's word for it! Do your own research and make sure you understand what you are changing and the effects it was have on the rest of the car/drivetrain. Ex. Going with high lift cams and no springs is not a good idea Ex2. Putting a MBC w/o management and fueling is a very bad idea. Ex3. Putting in clutch that has 2600 lbs pressure plate...not a good idea
Ensure your engine management is correct
Make sure you understand what changes are being made to your ECU/EMS before you or your tuner does them. Ask tons of questions and if your tuner won't explain everything to you I suggest you leave immediately. You have to understand what is going on and why they are making a change. Remember that this is your car and if it dies the tuner is not going to pay for it (most make you sign a disclaimer for this exact reason).
There seem to be an influx of spun bearings and dead engines on EvoM lately and I hope this may help just one person not have to spend the ridiculous amounts of money that I am shelling out right now.
Have fun and speed safely!
-Bakari
Thanks for the edit, and it is so hard to find a trusted tuner who won't TRY to SWEEP a mess under the carpet. Also when venders go at each others throats it ruins their credibility. Keep it at the track gentleman.
Hey nrcooled, who is paying for your new motor? I hope they aren't making you pay for the parts.
Originally Posted by Speedlimit
Threads such as these are very informative and important for our members to reference. The originator did not mention a specific tuner nor assign blame and there is no need for vendor's to defend. Mail in flashes have been successfully used for years on EVo's and a safe way to gain additional power over the factory tune. If you have a competent tuner nearby with a chassis dyno then consider that and the benefits of tuning under controlled parameters.
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.
Bob....
Speedlimit...
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
I do this with the full understanding that the owner may get complaints from the folks who pay the bills around here. And I respect their right to get me fired
But we really should have the ability to review products and services without a thread being trashed or locked due to vendor's arguing with each other. Thanks.Bob....
Speedlimit...
Censorship has become a big deal around the forums as of late. If a vendor doesn’t like a thread, they are able to get post pruned, threads closed, or even deleted. I can understand a thread getting closed or deleted if it is a deliberate attack against a vendor. However, when it is a technical discussion this should not happen. Vendors also have the right to “defend” their position. Though, it should be done with thought and not an attempt to provoke other members. Vendors should make an honest attempt to understand a problem that a member is having and help them in a logical way without reverting to personal attack or outlandish claims to “defend” their product or service. How would a potential customer feel about going to a vendor that second-guessed current customers, or mocked them on their vendor forums? I know I wouldn’t deal with them. Vendors should be held to the same level that forum members are. They should not be allowed to make personal attacks, or harsh remarks toward other members or vendors.
There should be no forms of censorship outside of vendor forums. In reality there should not be censorship any place on Evolutionm.net. I have seen in many cases where a vendor out-right closes a thread in their own forums when a customer has a problem with their product. Why the censorship? Why would a vendor go to such lengths to “hide” a problem? A vendor should be able to help a customer with a problem without publicly humiliating them along with their fan base and closing the thread. I'm beginning to think Vendors should be kept only to their appropriate forums. This might prevent further incidents such as this one, as they are becoming far too common, no matter who they are or what vendor they come from. This would potentially help cut down or eliminate the outright lies and misinformation that is spread throughout. It enables members to have un-biased conversations without the fear that a vendor might have the thread locked. It would also help to subside the “fanboyisum” that is running rampant.
Nrcooled, you deserved far better treatment from your tuner. It was completely uncalled for when you were verbally attacked. I applaud you for not mentioning any names, as your thread applied to not only everyone on EvoM, but any other car enthusiast looking for tuning. It’s just a shame that there are a select few around here that seem to think they run the show.
Originally Posted by Speedlimit
Threads such as these are very informative and important for our members to reference. The originator did not mention a specific tuner nor assign blame and there is no need for vendor's to defend...
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
Bob....
Speedlimit...
Dave Buschur's addition to this thread remains, as he added to the technical content. All the other vendor comments were removed. The enthusiast aspect of this website is important and threads such as these should remain open for discussion unencumbered by vendor agenda's. Please visit their forums to discuss tuning methods and services.
Bob....
Speedlimit...
l8r)
Event-Horizon,
Any load bearing dyno, happy now? Just MD is by far the most popular here in the states. Have you ever used a AEM? Just wondering or are you playing crotch hugger boy on the previous quote?
Worst movie in history by the way!
Any load bearing dyno, happy now? Just MD is by far the most popular here in the states. Have you ever used a AEM? Just wondering or are you playing crotch hugger boy on the previous quote?
Worst movie in history by the way!
Last edited by Jasil; Feb 23, 2006 at 10:54 AM.
Admin Emeritus
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,239
Likes: 101
From: NR Reading PA
Originally Posted by Jasil
Event-Horizon,
Any load bearing dyno, happy now? Just MD is by far the most popular here in the states. Have you ever used a AEM? Just wondering or are you playing crotch hugger boy on the previous quote?
Worst movie in history by the way!
Any load bearing dyno, happy now? Just MD is by far the most popular here in the states. Have you ever used a AEM? Just wondering or are you playing crotch hugger boy on the previous quote?
Worst movie in history by the way!
I don't want to see another "hop on the bandwagon" vendor bashfest--we've had enough of those threads. We don't have the time to be slicing and dicing these threads and weeding out the slurs that people feel they have to make to be "cool". If you disagree, then state your position in fashion without name calling. Stay out of this thread if you cannot converse in mature fashion. PM me your questions. Thanks.