I want to blow up my engine!!! (Edited)
First off nice post you made, I don't feel you are being negative towards anyone which is appreciated and unusual.
There are some posts mixed in here that I can't believe I am even reading though. You are right about what you read on the internet as this topic is proof of some real dumb asses being allowed to type publically. Wow.
Anyway, I agree with Al. Road racing has got to be the hardest on a car of all types of motorsports. I am amazed at the abuse a car sees road racing compared to say, drag racing.
Something I'd like to ask you, Bakari. Were any of the spark plug electrodes burnt off when you took the engine out? Where any of the pistons melted on the tops? You mentioned detonation being the cause of the failure but honestly I personally highly doubt that is/was the case. The last thing to generally fail from detonation is a bearing, especially only one bearing. IF it was detonation that destroyed only one particular bearing you may want to get the injector from that cylinder checked out. My guess, and it is a fairly educated guess after doing these engines for 17 years, is the rod bolts stretched and that let the bearing spin. The rod bolts in the EVO are pretty lame. Not something I'd consider road racing on. I'd say if I was going to spend anytime road racing with an EVO it would be worth doing an in chassis swap of the pistons and rods to be safe.
I've seen quite a few EVO's with one spun rod bearing. I have seen these mostly in stock bottom ends that have been pushed pretty hard. Of these engines I have not taken one apart yet that I could see any real signs of detonation in. The bearings simply spun and from what we could come up with after the damage was done it was simply the stock rod bolts not being up to the task of the increased HP and increased RPM's.
I don't think you tune is what hurt you or your combination of parts. My guess is the stock rod bolts just weren't up the task of what you were asking the engine to do.
Good luck with the build. I hope it goes really good for you.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
There are some posts mixed in here that I can't believe I am even reading though. You are right about what you read on the internet as this topic is proof of some real dumb asses being allowed to type publically. Wow.
Anyway, I agree with Al. Road racing has got to be the hardest on a car of all types of motorsports. I am amazed at the abuse a car sees road racing compared to say, drag racing.
Something I'd like to ask you, Bakari. Were any of the spark plug electrodes burnt off when you took the engine out? Where any of the pistons melted on the tops? You mentioned detonation being the cause of the failure but honestly I personally highly doubt that is/was the case. The last thing to generally fail from detonation is a bearing, especially only one bearing. IF it was detonation that destroyed only one particular bearing you may want to get the injector from that cylinder checked out. My guess, and it is a fairly educated guess after doing these engines for 17 years, is the rod bolts stretched and that let the bearing spin. The rod bolts in the EVO are pretty lame. Not something I'd consider road racing on. I'd say if I was going to spend anytime road racing with an EVO it would be worth doing an in chassis swap of the pistons and rods to be safe.
I've seen quite a few EVO's with one spun rod bearing. I have seen these mostly in stock bottom ends that have been pushed pretty hard. Of these engines I have not taken one apart yet that I could see any real signs of detonation in. The bearings simply spun and from what we could come up with after the damage was done it was simply the stock rod bolts not being up to the task of the increased HP and increased RPM's.
I don't think you tune is what hurt you or your combination of parts. My guess is the stock rod bolts just weren't up the task of what you were asking the engine to do.
Good luck with the build. I hope it goes really good for you.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
So the EVO was flashed 2 years ago...shouldn't the motor last longer than that? 
Am I wrong for thinking the a reflash should be reliable and that your motor isn't going to blew up in 2 years or less?
Am I wrong for thinking the a reflash should be reliable and that your motor isn't going to blew up in 2 years or less?
Newbie
Joined: Apr 2005
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From: US
[QUOTE=TrinaBabe]Its not hard to hit every cell with road tuning. I would always rather tune my car on a track than on a dyno. On a dyno you dont have any real world characteristics. Yes you would need to do a minor amount of research. If you cant figure out how to tune your own car with a UTEC you probably shouldnt get one at all. I believe anyone that buys any type of EMS should be able to at least make minor tuning changings by themselves and know what those changes are doing.QUOTE]
Remember these lines:
1) The power is in the timing
2) Dial in the proper AFR to control detonation
3) You want to tune for maximum brake torque (MBT). MBT is a few degrees from the threshold of detonation. When do you know you've reach MBT? When adding additional timing does not increase torque.
4) Road tuning is like walking across a busy intersection with blindfolds on; you better cross your finger and hope nothing goes wrong.
5) Hitting every relevant cell on a map with road tuning is next to impossible and that's assuming you didn't hit a car or pedestrian while trying to do a road tune.
The only way to properly tune a car without putting the motor on an engine dyno is on a chassis dyno. And i'm not talking about an inertia dyno (Dynojet). An inertia dyno is only good for giving you a hp number from a swept test (acceleration test) and that number is always inflated--it cannot hold a load inorder for you to hit all the relevant cells. If you're tuning on an inertia dyno, you can only hit the full throttle and acceleration map. Since the inertia dyno sweeps so fast during the sweep test, it's very difficult to tune each cell to see the torque gain or loss in real time. And since the acceleration map comes into play, the tuner thinks that the car is running rich and leans out the based fuel map. What happens now is when you drive your car under a steady load at a steady rpm, the acceleraton map doesn't come into play, and basically your car ends up running lean and possibly detonating.
It's very difficult to hit all the relevant cells on an inertia dyno, since you can't hold a steady load. For example, say you want to hit a cell on your fuel/ignition map for high load at low rpm. You will not be able to easily hit this cell on an inertia dyno or even during hard acceleration on a road test. So why do you care? Say one day you're carrying 4 friends, a dog, an a trunk full of kegs in your car and you're accelerating up a step hill in the wrong gear, your ecu is going to hit that low rpm and high load map cell and guess what, you never properly tuned that cell--you better cross your finger and hope nothing goes wrong.
Back to road tuning. Road tuning is great for fine tuning your acceleration map, idle, off throttle response.Period. It should only be done after a proper dyno tune on a loading dyno (dynodynamics,dynapack,rototest,DTS,mustang, etc.) not an inertia dyno. A good loading dyno can hold a steady state load at any giving rpm allowing the tuner to adjust each cell in both the ignition and fuel map. During steady state test, you can see the power go up and down as you adjust the ignition map. That's the only way you can tell if you've optimzed the ignition and fueling for that cell. There's no way in hell that you will know this by doing a road tune. Nobody's butt dyno is that sensitive plus you won't know when you've reach MBT. If you go beyond that, say hello Mr. Detonation--especially on a forced induction motor. BTW, do you think car manufacturers build a motor, throw it into a car and have one of their engineers "road tune" the ecu and call it quits?
And if you're paying somebody to "road tune" your car, you're wasting your money. A mail-in flash is only good if the your car has the same modification/setup that the flash was tuned for and assuming the flash was also calibrated/tuned on a dyno.
And finally, a car tuned for all-out power for drag racing is not going to last too long in road racing. We're talking about an engine being abused for a 1/4 mile vs a few hundred miles.
Remember these lines:
1) The power is in the timing
2) Dial in the proper AFR to control detonation
3) You want to tune for maximum brake torque (MBT). MBT is a few degrees from the threshold of detonation. When do you know you've reach MBT? When adding additional timing does not increase torque.
4) Road tuning is like walking across a busy intersection with blindfolds on; you better cross your finger and hope nothing goes wrong.
5) Hitting every relevant cell on a map with road tuning is next to impossible and that's assuming you didn't hit a car or pedestrian while trying to do a road tune.
The only way to properly tune a car without putting the motor on an engine dyno is on a chassis dyno. And i'm not talking about an inertia dyno (Dynojet). An inertia dyno is only good for giving you a hp number from a swept test (acceleration test) and that number is always inflated--it cannot hold a load inorder for you to hit all the relevant cells. If you're tuning on an inertia dyno, you can only hit the full throttle and acceleration map. Since the inertia dyno sweeps so fast during the sweep test, it's very difficult to tune each cell to see the torque gain or loss in real time. And since the acceleration map comes into play, the tuner thinks that the car is running rich and leans out the based fuel map. What happens now is when you drive your car under a steady load at a steady rpm, the acceleraton map doesn't come into play, and basically your car ends up running lean and possibly detonating.
It's very difficult to hit all the relevant cells on an inertia dyno, since you can't hold a steady load. For example, say you want to hit a cell on your fuel/ignition map for high load at low rpm. You will not be able to easily hit this cell on an inertia dyno or even during hard acceleration on a road test. So why do you care? Say one day you're carrying 4 friends, a dog, an a trunk full of kegs in your car and you're accelerating up a step hill in the wrong gear, your ecu is going to hit that low rpm and high load map cell and guess what, you never properly tuned that cell--you better cross your finger and hope nothing goes wrong.
Back to road tuning. Road tuning is great for fine tuning your acceleration map, idle, off throttle response.Period. It should only be done after a proper dyno tune on a loading dyno (dynodynamics,dynapack,rototest,DTS,mustang, etc.) not an inertia dyno. A good loading dyno can hold a steady state load at any giving rpm allowing the tuner to adjust each cell in both the ignition and fuel map. During steady state test, you can see the power go up and down as you adjust the ignition map. That's the only way you can tell if you've optimzed the ignition and fueling for that cell. There's no way in hell that you will know this by doing a road tune. Nobody's butt dyno is that sensitive plus you won't know when you've reach MBT. If you go beyond that, say hello Mr. Detonation--especially on a forced induction motor. BTW, do you think car manufacturers build a motor, throw it into a car and have one of their engineers "road tune" the ecu and call it quits?
And if you're paying somebody to "road tune" your car, you're wasting your money. A mail-in flash is only good if the your car has the same modification/setup that the flash was tuned for and assuming the flash was also calibrated/tuned on a dyno.
And finally, a car tuned for all-out power for drag racing is not going to last too long in road racing. We're talking about an engine being abused for a 1/4 mile vs a few hundred miles.
Originally Posted by davidbuschur
First off nice post you made, I don't feel you are being negative towards anyone which is appreciated and unusual.
There are some posts mixed in here that I can't believe I am even reading though. You are right about what you read on the internet as this topic is proof of some real dumb asses being allowed to type publically. Wow.
Anyway, I agree with Al. Road racing has got to be the hardest on a car of all types of motorsports. I am amazed at the abuse a car sees road racing compared to say, drag racing.
Something I'd like to ask you, Bakari. Were any of the spark plug electrodes burnt off when you took the engine out? Where any of the pistons melted on the tops? You mentioned detonation being the cause of the failure but honestly I personally highly doubt that is/was the case. The last thing to generally fail from detonation is a bearing, especially only one bearing. IF it was detonation that destroyed only one particular bearing you may want to get the injector from that cylinder checked out. My guess, and it is a fairly educated guess after doing these engines for 17 years, is the rod bolts stretched and that let the bearing spin. The rod bolts in the EVO are pretty lame. Not something I'd consider road racing on. I'd say if I was going to spend anytime road racing with an EVO it would be worth doing an in chassis swap of the pistons and rods to be safe.
I've seen quite a few EVO's with one spun rod bearing. I have seen these mostly in stock bottom ends that have been pushed pretty hard. Of these engines I have not taken one apart yet that I could see any real signs of detonation in. The bearings simply spun and from what we could come up with after the damage was done it was simply the stock rod bolts not being up to the task of the increased HP and increased RPM's.
I don't think you tune is what hurt you or your combination of parts. My guess is the stock rod bolts just weren't up the task of what you were asking the engine to do.
Good luck with the build. I hope it goes really good for you.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
There are some posts mixed in here that I can't believe I am even reading though. You are right about what you read on the internet as this topic is proof of some real dumb asses being allowed to type publically. Wow.
Anyway, I agree with Al. Road racing has got to be the hardest on a car of all types of motorsports. I am amazed at the abuse a car sees road racing compared to say, drag racing.
Something I'd like to ask you, Bakari. Were any of the spark plug electrodes burnt off when you took the engine out? Where any of the pistons melted on the tops? You mentioned detonation being the cause of the failure but honestly I personally highly doubt that is/was the case. The last thing to generally fail from detonation is a bearing, especially only one bearing. IF it was detonation that destroyed only one particular bearing you may want to get the injector from that cylinder checked out. My guess, and it is a fairly educated guess after doing these engines for 17 years, is the rod bolts stretched and that let the bearing spin. The rod bolts in the EVO are pretty lame. Not something I'd consider road racing on. I'd say if I was going to spend anytime road racing with an EVO it would be worth doing an in chassis swap of the pistons and rods to be safe.
I've seen quite a few EVO's with one spun rod bearing. I have seen these mostly in stock bottom ends that have been pushed pretty hard. Of these engines I have not taken one apart yet that I could see any real signs of detonation in. The bearings simply spun and from what we could come up with after the damage was done it was simply the stock rod bolts not being up to the task of the increased HP and increased RPM's.
I don't think you tune is what hurt you or your combination of parts. My guess is the stock rod bolts just weren't up the task of what you were asking the engine to do.
Good luck with the build. I hope it goes really good for you.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
I will not say I am an expert but I have had a crash course in engine building and I am paying for my education right now. The entire bottom end has been addressed and all is well. The final engine assembly is underway and I should be back on the road by the end of the month.
My main point is that if I would have monitored the engine properly I could have prevented my expenditures and still had a 2.0 that was pretty fast.
BTW - I have the pistons and rods in hand and there is so much soot and crap on the tops of the pistions that it is pretty difficult to really get a good feel for them.
Al I was the one pointing out the unreliability of flashes. You seem very defensive about your tuning ability and road tuning in general and I didn't even make a comment about you or your business at all. Why would you jump on Bakari and post all these links to what he said when he wasn't blaming the flash. etc.? I think they're unreliable, its that simple. What does my opinion mean? Absolutely nothing. Why can't it end there? You don't need to preach about how many satisfied customers you have and how seasoned your tuning abilities are
Evolved Member
iTrader: (4)
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,007
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From: Germantown, Maryland/Carbondale, IL
This is a good thread to read. I am def considering getting more monitoring devices before going furthur with mods due to my broke *** being to poor to repair stuff. Other then a wideband and boost gauge, what do u recomend?
NRcooled,
I am sorry to hear about your engine. I have a message for you and for the evolutionm forum. The simpler you keep it the better.
I have seen many of my friends swapping ECU methods, AEM EMS, UTEC, AUTRONIC, etc, there is nothing wrong with that but do you really need them.
My friend recently blew up his engine, I don't want to give names for respect to him but my car even ran faster than his multi thousand dollar ECU management swapps. I am just using ECU Flash.
My point is that you are going to be safe when you use a profesional tuner, I choose AL(Dynoflash) because this guy knows the stock ECU flash like no other but now days there are some very good reputable companies that would do similar jobs for similar money.
Choose a tuner that is known to be knowleable and reliable and above all, keep it simple it, sometimes a simple stock ECU flash is the way to go.
By the way, yes I also owned vehicles with aftermarket ECUs.
My .2c
Carlos
I am sorry to hear about your engine. I have a message for you and for the evolutionm forum. The simpler you keep it the better.
I have seen many of my friends swapping ECU methods, AEM EMS, UTEC, AUTRONIC, etc, there is nothing wrong with that but do you really need them.
My friend recently blew up his engine, I don't want to give names for respect to him but my car even ran faster than his multi thousand dollar ECU management swapps. I am just using ECU Flash.
My point is that you are going to be safe when you use a profesional tuner, I choose AL(Dynoflash) because this guy knows the stock ECU flash like no other but now days there are some very good reputable companies that would do similar jobs for similar money.
Choose a tuner that is known to be knowleable and reliable and above all, keep it simple it, sometimes a simple stock ECU flash is the way to go.
By the way, yes I also owned vehicles with aftermarket ECUs.
My .2c
Carlos
Originally Posted by Links0000
This is a good thread to read. I am def considering getting more monitoring devices before going furthur with mods due to my broke *** being to poor to repair stuff. Other then a wideband and boost gauge, what do u recomend?
I will be data logging the snot out of my new setup to ensure everything is working great.
Also I will be monitoring Oil pressure, oil temp, egt, AIT, MAP sensor, WB o2, knock, timing.
Since I am now running a beefed up bottom end I will set the rev limit to 7600RPM and have a blast along with constant fiddling to ensure all is right with my (now Porsche priced) Evo.
Evolved Member
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: Germantown, Maryland/Carbondale, IL
Originally Posted by nrcooled
Find a way to data log your car. When something happens you can "replay" the last 5 minutes or so and see what exactly is going on. This will empower you and allow you to formulate an educated guess on what has happened.
I will be data logging the snot out of my new setup to ensure everything is working great.
Also I will be monitoring Oil pressure, oil temp, egt, AIT, MAP sensor, WB o2, knock, timing.
Since I am now running a beefed up bottom end I will set the rev limit to 7600RPM and have a blast along with constant fiddling to ensure all is right with my (now Porsche priced) Evo.
I will be data logging the snot out of my new setup to ensure everything is working great.
Also I will be monitoring Oil pressure, oil temp, egt, AIT, MAP sensor, WB o2, knock, timing.
Since I am now running a beefed up bottom end I will set the rev limit to 7600RPM and have a blast along with constant fiddling to ensure all is right with my (now Porsche priced) Evo.
Originally Posted by Links0000
Thanks for the response...whats AIT...intake temp??
If you start knocking you can look at the intake air temp to figure out if the the FMIC is heat-soaked.
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From: Germantown, Maryland/Carbondale, IL
Originally Posted by nrcooled
Yep If you start knocking you can look at the intake air temp to figure out if the the FMIC is heat-soaked.
If you start knocking you can look at the intake air temp to figure out if the the FMIC is heat-soaked.
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Originally Posted by nrcooled
That is basically what you are saying when you don't monitor or manage your Evo properly.
I just want to share my experience with the rest of the community here so someone possibly won't make the same mistake I did:
I have had my Evo since April '04 and I have loved every minute of it. The car has been fantastic and didn't require anything from me except regular maintenance and good gas. I put my exhaust on, intake, MBC, flashed (for safety
), and got my fuel pump. Now someone tell me that is excessive modding....I thought that I was running within a very safe region of the engine and that "there are plenty of guys making more power then me and their cars can handle it" This statement will kill your engine and your bank account.
It killed mine and now my bank account is quickly getting smaller. Driving around one day I started getting a ticking sound. I ignored it since it sounded like it was coming from the dash area and a ticking dash on an Evo should come as no surprise to anyone reading this. Well, that was the slow destruction of my rod bearing eventually causing rod knock once the bearing wore down enough.
What I did wrong was:
1. Trusted the internet
Most people on the internet know just as much as you or less. Do your own research and become more savvy so you can question the advice and formulate your own hypothesis. Don't take anything for face value!
2. Trusted a flash
A flash is a great way to make power and very economical. The problem is I never monitored the engine parameters. No WB O2, no data logging, no oil pressure gauge, oil temp. I just thought that everything would be fine since I was flashed for my mods. I was very wrong!
3. Trusted people who's intent is to make money off of me
"Of course this mod will work with your setup" is what the vendor will say. Well no ****!!! If he says it won't work then you won't buy it.
Gentlemen, make sure that you are doing your due diligence to ensure your car i running properly and smoothly. Just because someone else's car is making the same ticking noise doesn't mean that it's supposed to be there. Here is a short list of things you should be doing for your car right now.
Ensure your engine monitoring is up to par
Monitor everything! I will say it again...Monitor everything! I always hated the look of 1500 gauges all over the car but it's worth it. Also, find a way to log it. With out good data logging all your gauges will be worthless if you can't reference it to a particular condition or parameter.
Understand everything you are doing to the engine before you do it
Don't take a vendor's word for it! Do your own research and make sure you understand what you are changing and the effects it was have on the rest of the car/drivetrain. Ex. Going with high lift cams and no springs is not a good idea Ex2. Putting a MBC w/o management and fueling is a very bad idea. Ex3. Putting in clutch that has 2600 lbs pressure plate...not a good idea
Ensure your engine management is correct
Make sure you understand what changes are being made to your ECU/EMS before you or your tuner does them. Ask tons of questions and if your tuner won't explain everything to you I suggest you leave immediately. You have to understand what is going on and why they are making a change. Remember that this is your car and if it dies the tuner is not going to pay for it (most make you sign a disclaimer for this exact reason).
There seem to be an influx of spun bearings and dead engines on EvoM lately and I hope this may help just one person not have to spend the ridiculous amounts of money that I am shelling out right now.
Have fun and speed safely!
-Bakari
I just want to share my experience with the rest of the community here so someone possibly won't make the same mistake I did:
I have had my Evo since April '04 and I have loved every minute of it. The car has been fantastic and didn't require anything from me except regular maintenance and good gas. I put my exhaust on, intake, MBC, flashed (for safety
), and got my fuel pump. Now someone tell me that is excessive modding....I thought that I was running within a very safe region of the engine and that "there are plenty of guys making more power then me and their cars can handle it" This statement will kill your engine and your bank account.It killed mine and now my bank account is quickly getting smaller. Driving around one day I started getting a ticking sound. I ignored it since it sounded like it was coming from the dash area and a ticking dash on an Evo should come as no surprise to anyone reading this. Well, that was the slow destruction of my rod bearing eventually causing rod knock once the bearing wore down enough.
What I did wrong was:
1. Trusted the internet
Most people on the internet know just as much as you or less. Do your own research and become more savvy so you can question the advice and formulate your own hypothesis. Don't take anything for face value!
2. Trusted a flash
A flash is a great way to make power and very economical. The problem is I never monitored the engine parameters. No WB O2, no data logging, no oil pressure gauge, oil temp. I just thought that everything would be fine since I was flashed for my mods. I was very wrong!
3. Trusted people who's intent is to make money off of me
"Of course this mod will work with your setup" is what the vendor will say. Well no ****!!! If he says it won't work then you won't buy it.
Gentlemen, make sure that you are doing your due diligence to ensure your car i running properly and smoothly. Just because someone else's car is making the same ticking noise doesn't mean that it's supposed to be there. Here is a short list of things you should be doing for your car right now.
Ensure your engine monitoring is up to par
Monitor everything! I will say it again...Monitor everything! I always hated the look of 1500 gauges all over the car but it's worth it. Also, find a way to log it. With out good data logging all your gauges will be worthless if you can't reference it to a particular condition or parameter.
Understand everything you are doing to the engine before you do it
Don't take a vendor's word for it! Do your own research and make sure you understand what you are changing and the effects it was have on the rest of the car/drivetrain. Ex. Going with high lift cams and no springs is not a good idea Ex2. Putting a MBC w/o management and fueling is a very bad idea. Ex3. Putting in clutch that has 2600 lbs pressure plate...not a good idea
Ensure your engine management is correct
Make sure you understand what changes are being made to your ECU/EMS before you or your tuner does them. Ask tons of questions and if your tuner won't explain everything to you I suggest you leave immediately. You have to understand what is going on and why they are making a change. Remember that this is your car and if it dies the tuner is not going to pay for it (most make you sign a disclaimer for this exact reason).
There seem to be an influx of spun bearings and dead engines on EvoM lately and I hope this may help just one person not have to spend the ridiculous amounts of money that I am shelling out right now.
Have fun and speed safely!
-Bakari
Originally Posted by EVIL_EVO_VIII
Damn! I have similar sound like that but it comes from the driver side by the dash close to the windshield, i dont know if it a vibration after the motor mount install or what! I hope its not the rod bearing ...Good luck with the rebuild
...Good luck with the rebuildHAHA yea i've had this too but I think its the dash rattling its a clickity click noise from road vibration and when I put pressure on my dash it goes away, I dont think its my rod bearing.