Turbo Upgrade: If you could do it over again...
May 7, 2006, 02:04 PM
#32
huh? i was agreeing with you with the caveat that the 3076 would like 110 a lot better. the 3071 is most defnitely just being safe with 110 as it won't take full advatage of the top end flow, it starts trailing off at about 7k. the 3076 will only make about 400hp with pump gas but is capable of 500 with racegas and it will flow it until you're redline, whatever it may safely be.
i think if you have a hunch that you will itch for more power later, get a 3076 nad always know you could have a killer street setup (even on pump gas) if you stroked it to 2.3 or got a new 2.4 block later on. it would be VERY responsive and you could make TONS of torque. and while you're still in 2.0 form it would still make for a livable spool time (not as eternity as 35r).
AND if you need a weeked cure for that itch before you get a new motro you could always drop in the race gas and see nice results, where with the 3071, you're maxing out on racegas to squeeze every little bit out, stringing it out to the max just like a stock sized turbo. i'd go as far to say that the 3071 is hte largest stock sized turbo you can get. after that it's racegas power.
i think if you have a hunch that you will itch for more power later, get a 3076 nad always know you could have a killer street setup (even on pump gas) if you stroked it to 2.3 or got a new 2.4 block later on. it would be VERY responsive and you could make TONS of torque. and while you're still in 2.0 form it would still make for a livable spool time (not as eternity as 35r).
AND if you need a weeked cure for that itch before you get a new motro you could always drop in the race gas and see nice results, where with the 3071, you're maxing out on racegas to squeeze every little bit out, stringing it out to the max just like a stock sized turbo. i'd go as far to say that the 3071 is hte largest stock sized turbo you can get. after that it's racegas power.
Last edited by trinydex; May 7, 2006 at 02:09 PM.
May 7, 2006, 02:21 PM
#33
Originally Posted by trinydex
huh? i was agreeing with you with the caveat that the 3076 would like 110 a lot better. the 3071 is most defnitely just being safe with 110 as it won't take full advatage of the top end flow, it starts trailing off at about 7k. the 3076 will only make about 400hp with pump gas but is capable of 500 with racegas and it will flow it until you're redline, whatever it may safely be.
i think if you have a hunch that you will itch for more power later, get a 3076 nad always know you could have a killer street setup (even on pump gas) if you stroked it to 2.3 or got a new 2.4 block later on. it would be VERY responsive and you could make TONS of torque. and while you're still in 2.0 form it would still make for a livable spool time (not as eternity as 35r).
AND if you need a weeked cure for that itch before you get a new motro you could always drop in the race gas and see nice results, where with the 3071, you're maxing out on racegas to squeeze every little bit out, stringing it out to the max.
i think if you have a hunch that you will itch for more power later, get a 3076 nad always know you could have a killer street setup (even on pump gas) if you stroked it to 2.3 or got a new 2.4 block later on. it would be VERY responsive and you could make TONS of torque. and while you're still in 2.0 form it would still make for a livable spool time (not as eternity as 35r).
AND if you need a weeked cure for that itch before you get a new motro you could always drop in the race gas and see nice results, where with the 3071, you're maxing out on racegas to squeeze every little bit out, stringing it out to the max.
I'm sticking with purely Buschur Racing products. I'm looking at their 20G-9, GT3071R, GT3076R, or either the GT30R to give me the most aggressive-feeling 375-425whp / 375-425wtq application.
Any thoughts?
May 7, 2006, 04:01 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by Ludikraut
1.) I would not have gone with the 3071 turbo. (it's in the process of being swapped for a 50 trim and it's looking much better so far)
2.) I may not have built up my motor. The jury is still out on this one. We'll see how take 2 goes. The first try induced excessive oil consumption (fine for street use, but no good for road racing).
3.) I would have probably gone for an overall solution from one shop, not two. In my case I run the XEDE management system, and I probably would have been wiser to either go with a Vishnu stage 2 or an AEM. Mixing vendors has incurred a few headaches and a lot of extra $$$.
4.) I would have budgeted money for a new clutch. Yeah, I know a lot of you will say "I told you so", but my stocker was fine. It was even fine with all the new mods - until the throwout bearing popped out. Bottom line ... the stock clutch is teh suck.
My car is being built up for road racing ... one painstaking step at a time.
Some general advice:
- Know what you want to do with your car. E.g. road racing vs. drag racing, pump gas vs. race gas applications. The big turbos are awesome ... on race gas. On pump gas it would be hard to justify anything past a 3076 sized turbo on a 2.0l.
- If you must build up your motor, then build a stroker for road racing (keep it under 7500 rpm) or build up a 2.0 for drag racing. I went with a high revving 2.0, but that was before I understood why I shouldn't have. Oh well, I still love the sound and I'll pray that it hold up under road race conditions.
- If you are going with any type of engine management that retains the factory ECU and you are building a fairly extreme setup .. budget for a custom ECU flash. I initially only had my ECU flashed for injector scaling and driveability was not that great. However, my driveability was worlds better after I had a full custom flash on my ECU a few months later. And yes, I still run the XEDE on top of the custom flash.
l8r)
2.) I may not have built up my motor. The jury is still out on this one. We'll see how take 2 goes. The first try induced excessive oil consumption (fine for street use, but no good for road racing).
3.) I would have probably gone for an overall solution from one shop, not two. In my case I run the XEDE management system, and I probably would have been wiser to either go with a Vishnu stage 2 or an AEM. Mixing vendors has incurred a few headaches and a lot of extra $$$.
4.) I would have budgeted money for a new clutch. Yeah, I know a lot of you will say "I told you so", but my stocker was fine. It was even fine with all the new mods - until the throwout bearing popped out. Bottom line ... the stock clutch is teh suck.
My car is being built up for road racing ... one painstaking step at a time.
Some general advice:
- Know what you want to do with your car. E.g. road racing vs. drag racing, pump gas vs. race gas applications. The big turbos are awesome ... on race gas. On pump gas it would be hard to justify anything past a 3076 sized turbo on a 2.0l.
- If you must build up your motor, then build a stroker for road racing (keep it under 7500 rpm) or build up a 2.0 for drag racing. I went with a high revving 2.0, but that was before I understood why I shouldn't have. Oh well, I still love the sound and I'll pray that it hold up under road race conditions.
- If you are going with any type of engine management that retains the factory ECU and you are building a fairly extreme setup .. budget for a custom ECU flash. I initially only had my ECU flashed for injector scaling and driveability was not that great. However, my driveability was worlds better after I had a full custom flash on my ECU a few months later. And yes, I still run the XEDE on top of the custom flash.
l8r)
BTW, does anyone know how much faster a stroker wears over a standard displacement motor? In terms of miles, how much longer would a stock displacement motor live over a stroker assuming equal conditions for both(good tunes, both rev'ed to their respective rev limits, etc)
May 7, 2006, 04:35 PM
#36
Originally Posted by sparky
Gaijin: Why would you not go with the complete Apexi turbo kit? Did you have fitment problems or a quality issue? Just curious as I like that turbo too and toy with the idea of eventually getting one.
I really just want to get my car up to full boost, but to give you an idea of what the turbo is capable of, I ran a 12.5 at 120mph with a crappy 2.0 60' and that was after the manifold had cracked so I had a pretty bad boost leak. I was only running about 1.7 bar of boost too with stock intercooler and piping. It's pretty hard to practice launching when your car is always down with cracked manifolds.
May 7, 2006, 06:42 PM
#38
Originally Posted by pure_evo
OK. That sounds great about pulling ALL the way to redline. I'd hate to have a torque monster just to get chased down at the end. The 400whp will more than I'd ever want. But what about the torque curve on pump gas?
I'm sticking with purely Buschur Racing products. I'm looking at their 20G-9, GT3071R, GT3076R, or either the GT30R to give me the most aggressive-feeling 375-425whp / 375-425wtq application.
Any thoughts?
I'm sticking with purely Buschur Racing products. I'm looking at their 20G-9, GT3071R, GT3076R, or either the GT30R to give me the most aggressive-feeling 375-425whp / 375-425wtq application.
Any thoughts?
the 3071 will move just the right amount of air for a 7500rpm redline beyond that rpm it'll just make noise like your stocker does after 6500 in stock form.
the problem is this... the 30series turbo makes that leap, the leap from stock sized to 30 series sized. the buschur 20g is trying to fill that gap between stock sized and 30 series sized, in reality they're both trying to fill that lag gap and coming from opposite ends, buschur trying to get more air flow up top and garrett trying to get less lag at the bottom.
a lotta europeans have used the 28 series turbines with very little lag up to 2.5 liters with very good success. keep in mind that hks's gt28 turbo is not a 28 series turbo, it's some sort of 3071 but they're trying the same thing too.
in the end... this battle just sucks. and i don't know if we'll ever come up with ultimate pump gas turbo.
Last edited by trinydex; May 7, 2006 at 06:45 PM.
May 7, 2006, 07:56 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by gaijin
The quality and fitment are top notch, but I have now cracked two exhaust manifolds in exactly the same spot with only about 200 miles of actual driving on each manifold. I am a little frustrated to say the least, but I really like the turbo itself. I think it is a design issue with the manifolds and I am working with Apexi USA right now on how to fix it. They have been very helpful throughout.
I really just want to get my car up to full boost, but to give you an idea of what the turbo is capable of, I ran a 12.5 at 120mph with a crappy 2.0 60' and that was after the manifold had cracked so I had a pretty bad boost leak. I was only running about 1.7 bar of boost too with stock intercooler and piping. It's pretty hard to practice launching when your car is always down with cracked manifolds.
I really just want to get my car up to full boost, but to give you an idea of what the turbo is capable of, I ran a 12.5 at 120mph with a crappy 2.0 60' and that was after the manifold had cracked so I had a pretty bad boost leak. I was only running about 1.7 bar of boost too with stock intercooler and piping. It's pretty hard to practice launching when your car is always down with cracked manifolds.
May 8, 2006, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by 1.8t
Who built your motor and what was the cause of the excessive oil consumption?
However, I can, with 100% confidence say that the bb 50 trim is clearly superior to the 3071 in all aspects: earlier spool, better torque, much better flow up top. The 50 trim actually feels a lot more like the stock turbo as far as spoolup goes. With the 50 trim spool up is not quite as fast as the 3071, it's a little bit more progressive, but it still manages to hit full boost 200 rpms before the 3071.
l8r)
May 8, 2006, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Ludikraut
AMS built the engine. The suspected culprit was that the piston rings did not seat properly. They have been re-ringed and the jury is still out.
However, I can, with 100% confidence say that the bb 50 trim is clearly superior to the 3071 in all aspects: earlier spool, better torque, much better flow up top. The 50 trim actually feels a lot more like the stock turbo as far as spoolup goes. With the 50 trim spool up is not quite as fast as the 3071, it's a little bit more progressive, but it still manages to hit full boost 200 rpms before the 3071.
l8r)
However, I can, with 100% confidence say that the bb 50 trim is clearly superior to the 3071 in all aspects: earlier spool, better torque, much better flow up top. The 50 trim actually feels a lot more like the stock turbo as far as spoolup goes. With the 50 trim spool up is not quite as fast as the 3071, it's a little bit more progressive, but it still manages to hit full boost 200 rpms before the 3071.
l8r)
If I were to do it all over again I would have gone with the proper monitoring tools to keep tabs on my engine and I would have done a stroker from the start. The 2.3l just feels right and actually runs better then stock (with less oil consumption).
Now for that BB 50 Trim
May 8, 2006, 11:08 AM
#43
Originally Posted by Ludikraut
AMS built the engine. The suspected culprit was that the piston rings did not seat properly. They have been re-ringed and the jury is still out.
However, I can, with 100% confidence say that the bb 50 trim is clearly superior to the 3071 in all aspects: earlier spool, better torque, much better flow up top. The 50 trim actually feels a lot more like the stock turbo as far as spoolup goes. With the 50 trim spool up is not quite as fast as the 3071, it's a little bit more progressive, but it still manages to hit full boost 200 rpms before the 3071.
l8r)
However, I can, with 100% confidence say that the bb 50 trim is clearly superior to the 3071 in all aspects: earlier spool, better torque, much better flow up top. The 50 trim actually feels a lot more like the stock turbo as far as spoolup goes. With the 50 trim spool up is not quite as fast as the 3071, it's a little bit more progressive, but it still manages to hit full boost 200 rpms before the 3071.
l8r)
May 8, 2006, 12:08 PM
#44
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Originally Posted by nrcooled
I really need a 50trim BB on my stroker
If I were to do it all over again I would have gone with the proper monitoring tools to keep tabs on my engine and I would have done a stroker from the start. The 2.3l just feels right and actually runs better then stock (with less oil consumption).
Now for that BB 50 Trim
If I were to do it all over again I would have gone with the proper monitoring tools to keep tabs on my engine and I would have done a stroker from the start. The 2.3l just feels right and actually runs better then stock (with less oil consumption).
Now for that BB 50 Trim
Trinydex - I'm not really knowledgeable enough to give a definitive answer on why the 3071 wasn't that great. IIRC it has to do with a less than optimal match between the compressor and turbine wheel. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in on this...
l8r)
Last edited by Ludikraut; May 8, 2006 at 12:13 PM.
May 8, 2006, 12:31 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by Ludikraut
Which pistons did you go with?
Trinydex - I'm not really knowledgeable enough to give a definitive answer on why the 3071 wasn't that great. IIRC it has to do with a less than optimal match between the compressor and turbine wheel. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in on this...
l8r)
Trinydex - I'm not really knowledgeable enough to give a definitive answer on why the 3071 wasn't that great. IIRC it has to do with a less than optimal match between the compressor and turbine wheel. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can chime in on this...
l8r)
If memory serves the tried and true TO4E 50 with a stage 3 wheel also has a very good compressor to turbine ratio ~15% which is prolly obvious since it performs so well.
-Brian