UTEC with 1000cc injectors on a 50 trim BB
UTEC with 1000cc injectors on a 50 trim BB
Is anyone running this setup on their 50 trim BB? I already did a search and came up with really old posts that had conflicting information. I don't want to go the AEM EMS route due to costs and emissions. Thanks for the info and advice.
Well, It is possible, but using ONLY the Utec to get the injectors to work will be a little tricky.. 1000cc injectors have quite a bit of latency, and therefore its properties are harder to control (its fuel output isn't linear without controlling the injector dead time and latency)
For instance, you would have to reduce your MAF value by 40% or so.. The only way to do that is to start by scaling the injector values..
The best way to do it is to start with a reflash scaled correctly for your injectors.. then you don't have to worry too much about the injector scaling at idle and closed loop fueling (altering the MAF)
Then you can alter the second Scaling value only, start with a value like 650cc or so.. but you end up removing quite a bit of fuel in the maps.
The UTEC directly controls the injectors for its open loop fueling.. If they had a new firmware out I would think they would have those types of things controllable..
Its something you might want to work with a tuner doing, since doing a reflash, and then tuning the UTEC on top of it correctly works great, but complicates a few of the concepts.
For instance, you would have to reduce your MAF value by 40% or so.. The only way to do that is to start by scaling the injector values..
The best way to do it is to start with a reflash scaled correctly for your injectors.. then you don't have to worry too much about the injector scaling at idle and closed loop fueling (altering the MAF)
Then you can alter the second Scaling value only, start with a value like 650cc or so.. but you end up removing quite a bit of fuel in the maps.
The UTEC directly controls the injectors for its open loop fueling.. If they had a new firmware out I would think they would have those types of things controllable..
Its something you might want to work with a tuner doing, since doing a reflash, and then tuning the UTEC on top of it correctly works great, but complicates a few of the concepts.
Originally Posted by dubbleugly01
those are really big injectors for a 50 trim. You could get buy with less. Is it too late, or can you go with 720's/780's? I'm running 780's on the Utec with no problems.
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
Well, It is possible, but using ONLY the Utec to get the injectors to work will be a little tricky.. 1000cc injectors have quite a bit of latency, and therefore its properties are harder to control (its fuel output isn't linear without controlling the injector dead time and latency)
For instance, you would have to reduce your MAF value by 40% or so.. The only way to do that is to start by scaling the injector values..
The best way to do it is to start with a reflash scaled correctly for your injectors.. then you don't have to worry too much about the injector scaling at idle and closed loop fueling (altering the MAF)
Then you can alter the second Scaling value only, start with a value like 650cc or so.. but you end up removing quite a bit of fuel in the maps.
The UTEC directly controls the injectors for its open loop fueling.. If they had a new firmware out I would think they would have those types of things controllable..
Its something you might want to work with a tuner doing, since doing a reflash, and then tuning the UTEC on top of it correctly works great, but complicates a few of the concepts.
For instance, you would have to reduce your MAF value by 40% or so.. The only way to do that is to start by scaling the injector values..
The best way to do it is to start with a reflash scaled correctly for your injectors.. then you don't have to worry too much about the injector scaling at idle and closed loop fueling (altering the MAF)
Then you can alter the second Scaling value only, start with a value like 650cc or so.. but you end up removing quite a bit of fuel in the maps.
The UTEC directly controls the injectors for its open loop fueling.. If they had a new firmware out I would think they would have those types of things controllable..
Its something you might want to work with a tuner doing, since doing a reflash, and then tuning the UTEC on top of it correctly works great, but complicates a few of the concepts.
I was told from various sources that if I planned to run the 50 trim on just 93 octane pump gas (with no alky, no methanol, no nitrous, e.t.c) that I had to use a mininum of 1000cc injectors. I am currently running a UTEC with 720 cc injectors. When I get the 50 trim, I want to have 2 maps.
The first map will be a pump-gas tune (93 octane), and the second map will be a race-gas tune (109 unleaded). As I stated before, I do not plan on using alcohol, methanol, e.t.c. Should I keep the 720 cc injectors I currently have, or should I upgrade to larger injectors, and what size?
Please keep in mind that I plan to do a stroker-kit later on, as well as head work. I also plan to get a high flow intake manifold. Thanks again for the advice.
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Originally Posted by MalibuJack
That was my other thought.. 1000cc injectors are overkill for a stock ECU based engine management solution.. their even a bit large for my GT35r
Last edited by Batmann!; Oct 22, 2006 at 07:05 PM.
If your running reasonable levels of boost and mostly pump I think you can easily get away with the ones you have, I wouldn't go larger than 850's.. Once you go much larger than that the UTEC becomes a little difficult to work with until you get the hang of things, or you can also reflash the ECU in addition to it.
The problem is there's only so much adjustment you can make altering the MAF signal to get the car to idle well with large injectors and the ECU not get confused.
But it can be done, its just that it takes some trial and error, and a bit of a learning curve as you experiment with settings.
Tuning isn't rocket science, but if your uncomfortable learning it, or dont have the time, you really need to work with someone who has experience doing it the first time around.
Most tuners dislike working with the UTEC because its a little counterintuitive to use when you combine it with a Reflash..
You might consider getting a reflash for your mods first, nothing radical, just to get the car running well.. Then use the UTEC for the final tuning, it'll be alot easier to add the UTEC back in later after you can get a base tune..
FWiW I've been able to get injectors as large as 1600cc's to work well with a reflash, and never got anything larger than 880's to work well on a UTEC... Its not really the UTEC's fault though, its a limitation on how it does scaling for your part throttle closed loop driving where the ECU is still doing the job.
The problem is there's only so much adjustment you can make altering the MAF signal to get the car to idle well with large injectors and the ECU not get confused.
But it can be done, its just that it takes some trial and error, and a bit of a learning curve as you experiment with settings.
Tuning isn't rocket science, but if your uncomfortable learning it, or dont have the time, you really need to work with someone who has experience doing it the first time around.
Most tuners dislike working with the UTEC because its a little counterintuitive to use when you combine it with a Reflash..
You might consider getting a reflash for your mods first, nothing radical, just to get the car running well.. Then use the UTEC for the final tuning, it'll be alot easier to add the UTEC back in later after you can get a base tune..
FWiW I've been able to get injectors as large as 1600cc's to work well with a reflash, and never got anything larger than 880's to work well on a UTEC... Its not really the UTEC's fault though, its a limitation on how it does scaling for your part throttle closed loop driving where the ECU is still doing the job.
Originally Posted by Creamo3
FWIW, I'm running a BB 50trim w/ FIC 650CC injectors and M10 meth injection nozzle. 1000cc is overkill for this turbo IMHO
Originally Posted by MalibuJack
If your running reasonable levels of boost and mostly pump I think you can easily get away with the ones you have, I wouldn't go larger than 850's.. Once you go much larger than that the UTEC becomes a little difficult to work with until you get the hang of things, or you can also reflash the ECU in addition to it.
The problem is there's only so much adjustment you can make altering the MAF signal to get the car to idle well with large injectors and the ECU not get confused.
But it can be done, its just that it takes some trial and error, and a bit of a learning curve as you experiment with settings.
Tuning isn't rocket science, but if your uncomfortable learning it, or dont have the time, you really need to work with someone who has experience doing it the first time around.
Most tuners dislike working with the UTEC because its a little counterintuitive to use when you combine it with a Reflash..
You might consider getting a reflash for your mods first, nothing radical, just to get the car running well.. Then use the UTEC for the final tuning, it'll be alot easier to add the UTEC back in later after you can get a base tune..
FWiW I've been able to get injectors as large as 1600cc's to work well with a reflash, and never got anything larger than 880's to work well on a UTEC... Its not really the UTEC's fault though, its a limitation on how it does scaling for your part throttle closed loop driving where the ECU is still doing the job.
The problem is there's only so much adjustment you can make altering the MAF signal to get the car to idle well with large injectors and the ECU not get confused.
But it can be done, its just that it takes some trial and error, and a bit of a learning curve as you experiment with settings.
Tuning isn't rocket science, but if your uncomfortable learning it, or dont have the time, you really need to work with someone who has experience doing it the first time around.
Most tuners dislike working with the UTEC because its a little counterintuitive to use when you combine it with a Reflash..
You might consider getting a reflash for your mods first, nothing radical, just to get the car running well.. Then use the UTEC for the final tuning, it'll be alot easier to add the UTEC back in later after you can get a base tune..
FWiW I've been able to get injectors as large as 1600cc's to work well with a reflash, and never got anything larger than 880's to work well on a UTEC... Its not really the UTEC's fault though, its a limitation on how it does scaling for your part throttle closed loop driving where the ECU is still doing the job.
, so I would have to get a new set. Would you recommend I get the same size I had before (720cc) or should I get 780cc or 880cc? Also would any of these injectors work fine if I did a stroker-kit, headwork and new intake manifold later on? I would hate to have to buy another set of injectors.
Last edited by Batmann!; Sep 25, 2006 at 08:49 AM.
Originally Posted by Batmann!
Oh really? How much power do you make just on pump gas ( without using the methonol)? Also do you have any problems when running just on pump without using the methonol?
Originally Posted by Batmann!
Thanks for the info. While all this was going on, it looks like I sold my injectors , so I would have to get a new set. Would you recommend I get the same size I had before (720cc) or should I get 780cc or 880cc? Also would any of these injectors work fine if I did a stroker-kit, headwork and new intake manifold later on? I would hate to have to buy another set of injectors.
, so I would have to get a new set. Would you recommend I get the same size I had before (720cc) or should I get 780cc or 880cc? Also would any of these injectors work fine if I did a stroker-kit, headwork and new intake manifold later on? I would hate to have to buy another set of injectors.On a reflash a friend with a GT30 type turbo kit had plenty of fuel even at high boost levels when he was running methanol.. And the car was tuned by a reputable tuner to be very rich also.. He had more than enough injector for that, I don't see you having problems with additional mods..
The stock ECU in general is a little better with injector size than an aftermarket EMS system where you generally run larger than necessary injectors.
Batmann!, in response to your question, I'm currently running a TME turbo with 780's. I did what malibujack is suggesting, I had the ECU flashed for the larger injectors knowing I'd be putting a bigger turbo on soon. The 50 trim is on the garage bench waiting to be installed. Just waiting for a couple more parts (60k service parts) to show up and the weather to cool off a bit. Nothing worse than working in your own un-airconditioned garage in Houston weather during the summer.
The Utec is working great with the base flash, and I'll use it to fine tune the 50 trim once it's installed. 780's are a bit big (IMO) for the 50 trim, but I'm not sure where I'm gonna stop on turbo size yet. Whoever suggested 1000 cc injectors minimum may have been thinking about the AEM EMS instead of the Utec. My undestanding is that you need larger injectors than normal with the AEM due to the injector drivers that system uses.
The Utec is working great with the base flash, and I'll use it to fine tune the 50 trim once it's installed. 780's are a bit big (IMO) for the 50 trim, but I'm not sure where I'm gonna stop on turbo size yet. Whoever suggested 1000 cc injectors minimum may have been thinking about the AEM EMS instead of the Utec. My undestanding is that you need larger injectors than normal with the AEM due to the injector drivers that system uses.