synapse synchronic bov???
Spent a few minutes on the phone with Synapse. Felt it was worth the time to post here saying that they are quite knowledgeable and very friendly. Not only do they produce a good product, but back it up with good customer service and right now, tech service outside the realm of their normal service 
They(he) called me, not usually the case with 99% of the companies out there.
We've got a few more little "things" to check out here pertaining to this topic. Also, all the parts for my isolator are either here now, or will be here between Saturday and Monday(2nd day air) so I should have some definitive answer to this situation very soon.
Regards,
They(he) called me, not usually the case with 99% of the companies out there.We've got a few more little "things" to check out here pertaining to this topic. Also, all the parts for my isolator are either here now, or will be here between Saturday and Monday(2nd day air) so I should have some definitive answer to this situation very soon.
Regards,
I read that somebody here is using the stock airbox/intake with the bucking problem, but I wasn't clear whether or not they actually had the synapse valve also. Can anybody reply whether or not the Synapse valve will bolt in to the stock UICP and intake without modification?
Very quick update on this.
My idea didn't work. Well it did, but the system doesn't work fast enough to keep up with rapid vac/boost transitions right around 5hg to 2-3psi and avoid compressor surge at the same time. I can either tune out the bucking/flutter and end up with compressor surge, or delete the CS and get the bucking again.
The EGR disconnect has no effect on this issue and is currently disconnected right now via looping and bypassing the white and yellow vacuum hoses off the TB itself. No differences good or bad in any case, and no CEL as of yet. Synapse and I might have thought the EGR was causing pressure fluctuations in the plenum at low throttle input but doesn't seem to be the case right now.
So................ I took a hammer to the car(just kidding Eric!!!) and went back on one of Synapses recommendations with a little tweak and wham......Houston we're getting somewhere! Managed to get the car to be completely drivable with 99% less bucking than ever before....just only runs @ ~1 bar boost right now in it's current configuration.
I'm just waiting for Synapse to pick up the phone out there so I can chat with him for a moment about a much needed part......
-Adam
My idea didn't work. Well it did, but the system doesn't work fast enough to keep up with rapid vac/boost transitions right around 5hg to 2-3psi and avoid compressor surge at the same time. I can either tune out the bucking/flutter and end up with compressor surge, or delete the CS and get the bucking again.
The EGR disconnect has no effect on this issue and is currently disconnected right now via looping and bypassing the white and yellow vacuum hoses off the TB itself. No differences good or bad in any case, and no CEL as of yet. Synapse and I might have thought the EGR was causing pressure fluctuations in the plenum at low throttle input but doesn't seem to be the case right now.
So................ I took a hammer to the car(just kidding Eric!!!) and went back on one of Synapses recommendations with a little tweak and wham......Houston we're getting somewhere! Managed to get the car to be completely drivable with 99% less bucking than ever before....just only runs @ ~1 bar boost right now in it's current configuration.
I'm just waiting for Synapse to pick up the phone out there so I can chat with him for a moment about a much needed part......
-Adam
Wow, I wonder which tweak it was that we were talking about. We covered so many possibilities.
Adam- I'm at a SEMA media conference all week with meetings every 1/2 hour with reporters. When I get a break I'm going to give you a ring on your cell.
Adam- I'm at a SEMA media conference all week with meetings every 1/2 hour with reporters. When I get a break I'm going to give you a ring on your cell.
So the info below might confuse some, so just hang tight . . .
We know 2 things here:
1) Bucking problem happens with increased boost, since BoxerSix played around with dropping boost by bleeding it down to 7 psi on the compressor side. However that doesn't tell us if it is because boost is lower, or because bleeding boost shifts the surge line on the compressor map over.
2) BoxerSix bled more boost and had it up to 15 psi (~1bar). And still no surge or bucking.
This leads me to believe even more so that we're shifting the surge line over on this compressor. I know that the compressor map doesn't look like it should even be anywhere near the surge line, however, there may be variables in there that we just don't know. The only info we can use are our real-world results. The reason why I believe we are shifting the surge line is because an aerospace buddy of mine and I were working with trying to shift the surge line on a turbocharged piston aero package that was having a surging problem and using the BOV to bleed some boost was the solution that his team came up with.
BoxerSix- Let me know once you've tried to use the MBC on the vac ports on the back of the Synchronic BOV to get it to start bleeding boost at a higher pressure. The other thing you will want to do is to make sure to have the wastegate open a little bit to drop the backpressure and help scavenging to keep the knock limit low. So you will have to find the optimum point where the wastegate is making just high enough boost that the BOV can crack open and regulate just below that threshold. And yet have enough backpressure to crack the WG swing valve open.
We know 2 things here:
1) Bucking problem happens with increased boost, since BoxerSix played around with dropping boost by bleeding it down to 7 psi on the compressor side. However that doesn't tell us if it is because boost is lower, or because bleeding boost shifts the surge line on the compressor map over.
2) BoxerSix bled more boost and had it up to 15 psi (~1bar). And still no surge or bucking.
This leads me to believe even more so that we're shifting the surge line over on this compressor. I know that the compressor map doesn't look like it should even be anywhere near the surge line, however, there may be variables in there that we just don't know. The only info we can use are our real-world results. The reason why I believe we are shifting the surge line is because an aerospace buddy of mine and I were working with trying to shift the surge line on a turbocharged piston aero package that was having a surging problem and using the BOV to bleed some boost was the solution that his team came up with.
BoxerSix- Let me know once you've tried to use the MBC on the vac ports on the back of the Synchronic BOV to get it to start bleeding boost at a higher pressure. The other thing you will want to do is to make sure to have the wastegate open a little bit to drop the backpressure and help scavenging to keep the knock limit low. So you will have to find the optimum point where the wastegate is making just high enough boost that the BOV can crack open and regulate just below that threshold. And yet have enough backpressure to crack the WG swing valve open.
Peter here is what i have found from the testing today. i have hooked the MBC inline with the boost only source going to the port C. after a few minor spring tweaks to the MBC itself(namley a lighter spring) I was able to use the MBC to tune the DV as a wastgate to control the boost pressure to any level I needed.
when tuned for 24-25psi as the car is normally, the bucking/fluttering existed. however if i backed off on the DV MBC just a little bit and brough boost pressure down into the 22-23 range the car ran superb with no bucking at all. Boost spikes to about 24-25psi and holds a solid 22-23 all the way out.
I have not had a chance to test using the MBC as a bleed on port C, nor have i been able to try the MBC on ports A+B as a bleed either. the valve as it sits now works great and functions for zero bucking at this 22-23psi level. i get a tiny amount of surge at low boost levels, like when taking off from a stop and shifitng into second. Presumably as i have no vacuum reference right now to the ports A+B
I'm not sure why the bucking occurs at that ~24psi level, but it's litteraly a fine line between working at 23psi, and not working at 24. Currently, the cars internal wastegate is set via a TXS MBC to about 24-25psi.....could that be a just cause to this where both the valve and wastegate are tyrying to regulate the same 24psi level? think i should turn the wastegate boost up to 26-27psi and adjust the Syncronic MBC and see if i can get that 24 mark with no flutter.
I read your post above regarding the wastegate setting. What are your recommendations for wastegate preload setting(actuator spring arm tension) and the psi boost setting on the MBC going to the actuator diaphram itself?
also what's the best email to send rough vacuum routing diagrams to you to check out? i have a few ideas to run by you and would rather ax any bad choices now and save me as much time testing as possible here.
it seems like we're heading in the right direction on this, or at least coming to a final conclusion as to the root cause. Even if unorthodox here, whatever makes this go away is good in my opinion......
-Adam
when tuned for 24-25psi as the car is normally, the bucking/fluttering existed. however if i backed off on the DV MBC just a little bit and brough boost pressure down into the 22-23 range the car ran superb with no bucking at all. Boost spikes to about 24-25psi and holds a solid 22-23 all the way out.
I have not had a chance to test using the MBC as a bleed on port C, nor have i been able to try the MBC on ports A+B as a bleed either. the valve as it sits now works great and functions for zero bucking at this 22-23psi level. i get a tiny amount of surge at low boost levels, like when taking off from a stop and shifitng into second. Presumably as i have no vacuum reference right now to the ports A+B
I'm not sure why the bucking occurs at that ~24psi level, but it's litteraly a fine line between working at 23psi, and not working at 24. Currently, the cars internal wastegate is set via a TXS MBC to about 24-25psi.....could that be a just cause to this where both the valve and wastegate are tyrying to regulate the same 24psi level? think i should turn the wastegate boost up to 26-27psi and adjust the Syncronic MBC and see if i can get that 24 mark with no flutter.
I read your post above regarding the wastegate setting. What are your recommendations for wastegate preload setting(actuator spring arm tension) and the psi boost setting on the MBC going to the actuator diaphram itself?
also what's the best email to send rough vacuum routing diagrams to you to check out? i have a few ideas to run by you and would rather ax any bad choices now and save me as much time testing as possible here.
it seems like we're heading in the right direction on this, or at least coming to a final conclusion as to the root cause. Even if unorthodox here, whatever makes this go away is good in my opinion......
-Adam
Where's the WOOT smiley when I need it 
Guys.......It's 99.99% working YAY. This is MOST DEFINITELY an unorthodox way to operate and unte a car with a valve but it works. I have just an ever so slight hint of compressor surge at low rpm/throttle input(basically 1st to 2nd shift) but aside from that the flutter has been gone on this car for damn near an hour of driving around testing stuff and setting up the system.
Tomorrow(Weds) I'm going to be putting the car on the dyno again to do some fine tuning with it as I am bleeding off a tiny amount of excess air that I need to compensate for from about 5500rpm to redline. It's definitely a finiky tune to make it work, and I will go into a little more detail on how I have it working once I see the dyno plots for AFR/torque/etc against the RPM. I don't want to be shooting out finalized ideas yet.
Once this is proven to be 100% by my final dyno test, I'm going to be working with a few people here to develop a plug and play system that works in conjunction with the Syncronic valve to eliminate this flutter. It will ONLY work with the Syncronic valve, no other valve on the market has the ability to work in this manner so in essence you can really than Peter @ Synapse Engineering for developing this product
I should have some conclusive information up some point after tomorrow. I'll post some dyno sheets online as well.
Regards,
Guys.......It's 99.99% working YAY. This is MOST DEFINITELY an unorthodox way to operate and unte a car with a valve but it works. I have just an ever so slight hint of compressor surge at low rpm/throttle input(basically 1st to 2nd shift) but aside from that the flutter has been gone on this car for damn near an hour of driving around testing stuff and setting up the system.
Tomorrow(Weds) I'm going to be putting the car on the dyno again to do some fine tuning with it as I am bleeding off a tiny amount of excess air that I need to compensate for from about 5500rpm to redline. It's definitely a finiky tune to make it work, and I will go into a little more detail on how I have it working once I see the dyno plots for AFR/torque/etc against the RPM. I don't want to be shooting out finalized ideas yet.
Once this is proven to be 100% by my final dyno test, I'm going to be working with a few people here to develop a plug and play system that works in conjunction with the Syncronic valve to eliminate this flutter. It will ONLY work with the Syncronic valve, no other valve on the market has the ability to work in this manner so in essence you can really than Peter @ Synapse Engineering for developing this product
I should have some conclusive information up some point after tomorrow. I'll post some dyno sheets online as well.
Regards,
