If they feel twin scroll for T3 is not a good idea, why not order a couple Full Race kits (cost $14k or so), install them on a customer car (cost $500 or so), tune and dyno them (low cost as this is what they do every day in their own facilities), and then put on their own respective kits, and re-tune and re-dyno the cars.

At the end of it all they could sell the kits on for close to full value. Maybe take a loss of a few thousand dollars. I'm sure they could make this money back in new turbo kit sales from the positive results of the above test.

 

i don't see the point. why should ams or buschur have to show the community why they feel they're not beneficial, or worth the time? shouldn't it be up to FR to prove why it is? i don't see buschur ever selling FR products, vs his own. not to mention, to validate the test, you would need a similar housing for the standard t3 (.48 is closer than .63) and a similar designed manifold.

in the end, i'm not a fan of the divided t3's either. t3 turbines on a 2L motor spool plenty fast.

 

and a twin scroll spools even faster.

 

I agree that the TS kits need to be tested like this. I am very interested in a TS 30R kit along with a built 2.3L for a time attack car. I think the combo would spool quickly and provide enough power for a road course.
But, I do think that it would be up to Full Race to do the testing. They are the ones that want to sell it and make the money. They should be the ones to prove it. Buschur and AMS have spent the time and money to show us what their products can do, and even though they say that the TS products do not show an advantage for the price, it is still up to the manufacturer of the product to show that the advantage exists.

Just my 0.02

 

because there will always be haters here, and say the test was flawed for one reason or another, and it would turn into a big flame fest, like this thread is about to become.

 

Why do you feel that is necassary. Both AMS and Buschur have PROVEN turbo kits on the market. They are PROVEN to make power. That is a huge undertaking in cost, labor and to gain what. Twin scroll kits are out there, The data is out for you to gather. If it was as easy as you make it out to sound, buy the parts, rent a dyno, find a tuner and a tech to do the installs and conduct the test. Half the time DB does a test it is contested by nutswingers of other shops.

 

You could always opt to do it yourself. Why haven't you done this yet? What about the UK guys? Have they done these tests? If not, then why haven't they tested the TS vs SS yet? Is there a reason the UK guys haven't all switched to TS yet?

 

I totally agree with what you all are saying.

I was just making a point that it seems it might be a good business decision for other shops like Buschur or AMS to say, "Hey, our kits are as good or better than Full-Race kits which cost more." I thought this might yield them enough business to offset the cost of the tests.

And if the test came back that twin-scroll was the way to go, they could then try to figure out what about the Full-Race kit was so good, and emulate or improve it?

 

A business is designed to Make Money. Not go spend 10K+ on testing that will be argued over anyways. Why don't you ask FR to do a test on AMS, And Buschur's setups. I'd say FR is the one who has something to prove.

 

since when was losing money a good business decision?!?

 

i wonder why the two shops with the fastest and quickest evo's use regular housings?

Just something to think about here,,, are you aware of the sacrifices of the twin scroll? yes it spools faster, but you lose some top end flow.....

 

if they did a true test like this then ppl would realize that no one is better than full-race

 

Can you prove this with dyno plots of anything smaller than a 40R? Those that don't like the TS kits always post this as if it's fact, but I have yet to see it proven with actual dyno results.

Obviously there is tremendous advantage to running a twin scroll system or nearly every OEM that sells a turbo charged car would not go through the increased expense and complexity of building TS systems. I've never seen an OEM reference any loss of power when discussing their TS set ups. And it's not just a single OEM that uses TS. In fact, I can't think of a single OEM that doesn't use TS turbos on their gas cars, though I'm sure there is probably one or two.

Nothing against Buschur or AMS, but I can guarantee the OEMs and Garrett have spent more money researching TS set ups than those two gross in a year or two combined.

The question to me seems to be, how much benefit do you get with a TS and is it worth the cost?

 

there are so many different kits... they all have their pros and cons... thats why there are different companies that make different ones or every1 would make the same exact kit

 

Both Buschur and AMS are using setups that have been proven time and time again. One other thing to consider in this is builder preference. Both companies have done their homework when they designed their kits and both used a setup they they felt was best at the time.

Right now, Full Race is the new guy here, so if anyone should be showing us back-to-back dyno testing, it should be them.