Why not all 20G's are equal
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
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From: Northwest
Why not all 20G's are equal
This comes as NO SURPRISE to most of us I am sure.
We save our money and look at what we can buy for our cars. "Oh hey there is a bolt on stock appearing turbo that can make xxx amount of hp AND ITS ONLY 1000 bux!!!". Maybe you have seen the turbo or turbos I am talking about, they usually have something in the name like:
"Evo 9 MR 20G 450hp"
or "Evo 20G 500hp"
and then they are like 950 or 1000 dollars or something incredibly low? I have seen people buy these turbos and their cars are slower than a stock turbo. Some have thought they bought a Green because it has the word 20G in it. Truth be known these arent even produced from MHI stock. They are replicas generally produced in China (nothing against the chinese) at a fraction of the cost and no concern for patents or such...unfortunately they also have no concern for performance either.
About 2 years ago, these were initially released in some forms to the DSM crowd. At that time FP purchased one and did some visual as well tech inspections of this piece and then an online forum discussion. I asked and recieved permission to reproduce parts of this discussion directly here for your benefit in the case you thought this turbo was for you:
I am sure there are details that I have left out (if so FP and company please correct me) and I encourage all to do research (not just plug up FP's phone lines please) on this before they buy one of these "turbos". In the end it seems this one was a 500 dollar doorstop.
JB
We save our money and look at what we can buy for our cars. "Oh hey there is a bolt on stock appearing turbo that can make xxx amount of hp AND ITS ONLY 1000 bux!!!". Maybe you have seen the turbo or turbos I am talking about, they usually have something in the name like:
"Evo 9 MR 20G 450hp"
or "Evo 20G 500hp"
and then they are like 950 or 1000 dollars or something incredibly low? I have seen people buy these turbos and their cars are slower than a stock turbo. Some have thought they bought a Green because it has the word 20G in it. Truth be known these arent even produced from MHI stock. They are replicas generally produced in China (nothing against the chinese) at a fraction of the cost and no concern for patents or such...unfortunately they also have no concern for performance either.
About 2 years ago, these were initially released in some forms to the DSM crowd. At that time FP purchased one and did some visual as well tech inspections of this piece and then an online forum discussion. I asked and recieved permission to reproduce parts of this discussion directly here for your benefit in the case you thought this turbo was for you:
Originally Posted by Robert Young
There are 22v and 24v compressors. One might be inclined to call the 22v a "new 20g", but only if one didn't know what its real name was. The 22v is about .050" bigger than a 20g wheel at the inducer. The "V" type wheel gives up some of its map width for some extra PR ability.
These 22v and 24v compressors are 7 blade wheels.
What I neglected to say earlier also was that these wheels dont fit TD06 or TD05 shafts, the holes are too large and the axial length of the wheel is too long. They fit the next size larger frame turbo similar to the 25g greddy stuff. Fitting them into normal TD06H 20g type turbos that we are all familiar with is not going to work, readily/easily anyway. However, keep in mind that humans did go to the moon with less computational power than your wristwatch has, so anything is possible.
The PN on the website for the turbo is not a good Mitsu PN, reported as "invalid", and that's not usually a good sign.
Trouble is, you can't see any PN in the picture, and the PN quoted does not exist. Japan tells me that a 49179-03080 is "invalid".
Japanese PN system is the system we use here in US. With all the chinese copy parts out there these days I wouldn't assume that because this wheel looks different that means that MHI has some secret. It is just as likely that it looks different because it is a copy and that is just the way it happened to come out.
Additionally, the guy that is actually selling from Japan is not making any claims that this is anything other than the normal 20g turbo the world has known for the last 10+years.
If there was a new wheel, they would not call it the same name as an existing wheel with the word "new" in front of it. It would get its own designation and part number. I will spill all beans as soon as I get info - but don't expect much out of this one.
It arrived today, and I am not sure where to start.
First - it ain't MHI.
Second - it didn't ship from Kobe Japan. It shipped from the peoples republic of china.
Third - the comp wheel is not a 20g.
So there is my $550 answer to your question, you are welcome.
The leading edges of the compressor wheel is flat and looks like the tool that made the wheel was worked with 80grit sand paper. The MHI 20g wheel has blades that are .021-.022" thick, this "20c" wheel (get it, c for china) has .030-.031 thick blades.
MHI wheels have nice parabolic leading edges, this "20c" wheel looks like a 2x4 along the leading edge. Well, at least a few of the blades do, they are not all exactly the same.
I have been working hard on wheel aero for a long time, leading edge is a key component to surge resistant wheel design. Whoever worked on this wheel had no concern for this characteristic.
It is not a very good copy
These 22v and 24v compressors are 7 blade wheels.
What I neglected to say earlier also was that these wheels dont fit TD06 or TD05 shafts, the holes are too large and the axial length of the wheel is too long. They fit the next size larger frame turbo similar to the 25g greddy stuff. Fitting them into normal TD06H 20g type turbos that we are all familiar with is not going to work, readily/easily anyway. However, keep in mind that humans did go to the moon with less computational power than your wristwatch has, so anything is possible.
The PN on the website for the turbo is not a good Mitsu PN, reported as "invalid", and that's not usually a good sign.
Trouble is, you can't see any PN in the picture, and the PN quoted does not exist. Japan tells me that a 49179-03080 is "invalid".
Japanese PN system is the system we use here in US. With all the chinese copy parts out there these days I wouldn't assume that because this wheel looks different that means that MHI has some secret. It is just as likely that it looks different because it is a copy and that is just the way it happened to come out.
Additionally, the guy that is actually selling from Japan is not making any claims that this is anything other than the normal 20g turbo the world has known for the last 10+years.
If there was a new wheel, they would not call it the same name as an existing wheel with the word "new" in front of it. It would get its own designation and part number. I will spill all beans as soon as I get info - but don't expect much out of this one.
It arrived today, and I am not sure where to start.
First - it ain't MHI.
Second - it didn't ship from Kobe Japan. It shipped from the peoples republic of china.
Third - the comp wheel is not a 20g.
So there is my $550 answer to your question, you are welcome.
The leading edges of the compressor wheel is flat and looks like the tool that made the wheel was worked with 80grit sand paper. The MHI 20g wheel has blades that are .021-.022" thick, this "20c" wheel (get it, c for china) has .030-.031 thick blades.
MHI wheels have nice parabolic leading edges, this "20c" wheel looks like a 2x4 along the leading edge. Well, at least a few of the blades do, they are not all exactly the same.
I have been working hard on wheel aero for a long time, leading edge is a key component to surge resistant wheel design. Whoever worked on this wheel had no concern for this characteristic.
It is not a very good copy
JB
Last edited by JohnBradley; Apr 1, 2008 at 11:59 PM.
Were there any parts off the turbo that could be used?
I wonder if there is some parts that could be used, along with OEM parts that could somehow make some hybrid that could make a sock one better.
I wonder if there is some parts that could be used, along with OEM parts that could somehow make some hybrid that could make a sock one better.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
As far as being paranoid about what you are getting, Robert was pretty clear that the "part numbers" on these turbos arent real MHI numbers. Anything you are going to buy, check the part numbers online or find a friend at a dealership that can do it for you. My understanding is this is the WHOLE turbo not just a compressor wheel (they arent buying stockers and upgrading them) so it should be relatively simple to see if its good or not.
Last edited by JohnBradley; Apr 2, 2008 at 08:47 AM.
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Thread Starter
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 11,406
Likes: 78
From: Northwest
Well the only real EVO 20G is the one that FP produces, and I am not sure if they restamp it or not. I dont have a stock turbo to look at but if you give me a few days I am sure I can drum one up.
This comes as NO SURPRISE to most of us I am sure.
We save our money and look at what we can buy for our cars. "Oh hey there is a bolt on stock appearing turbo that can make xxx amount of hp AND ITS ONLY 1000 bux!!!". Maybe you have seen the turbo or turbos I am talking about, they usually have something in the name like:
"Evo 9 MR 20G 450hp"
or "Evo 20G 500hp"
and then they are like 950 or 1000 dollars or something incredibly low? I have seen people buy these turbos and their cars are slower than a stock turbo. Some have thought they bought a Green because it has the word 20G in it. Truth be known these arent even produced from MHI stock. They are replicas generally produced in China (nothing against the chinese) at a fraction of the cost and no concern for patents or such...unfortunately they also have no concern for performance either.
About 2 years ago, these were initially released in some forms to the DSM crowd. At that time FP purchased one and did some visual as well tech inspections of this piece and then an online forum discussion. I asked and recieved permission to reproduce parts of this discussion directly here for your benefit in the case you thought this turbo was for you:
I am sure there are details that I have left out (if so FP and company please correct me) and I encourage all to do research (not just plug up FP's phone lines please) on this before they buy one of these "turbos". In the end it seems this one was a 500 dollar doorstop.
JB
We save our money and look at what we can buy for our cars. "Oh hey there is a bolt on stock appearing turbo that can make xxx amount of hp AND ITS ONLY 1000 bux!!!". Maybe you have seen the turbo or turbos I am talking about, they usually have something in the name like:
"Evo 9 MR 20G 450hp"
or "Evo 20G 500hp"
and then they are like 950 or 1000 dollars or something incredibly low? I have seen people buy these turbos and their cars are slower than a stock turbo. Some have thought they bought a Green because it has the word 20G in it. Truth be known these arent even produced from MHI stock. They are replicas generally produced in China (nothing against the chinese) at a fraction of the cost and no concern for patents or such...unfortunately they also have no concern for performance either.
About 2 years ago, these were initially released in some forms to the DSM crowd. At that time FP purchased one and did some visual as well tech inspections of this piece and then an online forum discussion. I asked and recieved permission to reproduce parts of this discussion directly here for your benefit in the case you thought this turbo was for you:
I am sure there are details that I have left out (if so FP and company please correct me) and I encourage all to do research (not just plug up FP's phone lines please) on this before they buy one of these "turbos". In the end it seems this one was a 500 dollar doorstop.
JB
this conversation does not refer to the evo 20g turbos on the market. evo 20g turbos are reverse rotation turbos and are in a field of their own when It comes to turbos. This conversation arose from some DSM 20g turbos that sold on e-bay. They were sold as mitsubishi turbos when in fact they were copies of TD06H/20g turbos that were made in taiwan.(not china) I know because I bought five of them. The first one I used made 407whp at 26 psi on a mustang dyno. And second one made 380whp on a very simple setup with 2.5" exhaust. I also swapped into the second setup a genuine mitsu model turbo and didnt see even a 5whp increase. The description robert gives that that turbo really made it sound bad. When in reality the turbo performed as the geniune article as far as performance was concerned. It did have a fake mitsu part number on it. That block of text makes it sound like the 22v and 24v wheels have fake part numbers and where supposed to be "new" 20g wheels. That is totally incorrect. the 22v and 24v are genuine mits wheels and in fact are updated in design much like the HTA wheel. here is a picture of the 24v
the frist wheel is the HTA 35, the one two its right is the 35r. below them is the 24v next to the 25g. The 24v has all the cool characteristics of the HTA wheel. I question where Robert got the Idea to make HTA wheels. cause it looks to me mitsubishi had the ideas first.
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Wow, I dont know where to start. So many things wrong here I will try and clear some up.
this conversation does not refer to the evo 20g turbos on the market. evo 20g turbos are reverse rotation turbos and are in a field of their own when It comes to turbos. This conversation arose from some DSM 20g turbos that sold on e-bay. They were sold as mitsubishi turbos when in fact they were copies of TD06H/20g turbos that were made in taiwan.(not china) I know because I bought five of them. The first one I used made 407whp at 26 psi on a mustang dyno. And second one made 380whp on a very simple setup with 2.5" exhaust. I also swapped into the second setup a genuine mitsu model turbo and didnt see even a 5whp increase. The description robert gives that that turbo really made it sound bad. When in reality the turbo performed as the geniune article as far as performance was concerned. It did have a fake mitsu part number on it. That block of text makes it sound like the 22v and 24v wheels have fake part numbers and where supposed to be "new" 20g wheels. That is totally incorrect. the 22v and 24v are genuine mits wheels and in fact are updated in design much like the HTA wheel. here is a picture of the 24v
the frist wheel is the HTA 35, the one two its right is the 35r. below them is the 24v next to the 25g. The 24v has all the cool characteristics of the HTA wheel. I question where Robert got the Idea to make HTA wheels. cause it looks to me mitsubishi had the ideas first.
this conversation does not refer to the evo 20g turbos on the market. evo 20g turbos are reverse rotation turbos and are in a field of their own when It comes to turbos. This conversation arose from some DSM 20g turbos that sold on e-bay. They were sold as mitsubishi turbos when in fact they were copies of TD06H/20g turbos that were made in taiwan.(not china) I know because I bought five of them. The first one I used made 407whp at 26 psi on a mustang dyno. And second one made 380whp on a very simple setup with 2.5" exhaust. I also swapped into the second setup a genuine mitsu model turbo and didnt see even a 5whp increase. The description robert gives that that turbo really made it sound bad. When in reality the turbo performed as the geniune article as far as performance was concerned. It did have a fake mitsu part number on it. That block of text makes it sound like the 22v and 24v wheels have fake part numbers and where supposed to be "new" 20g wheels. That is totally incorrect. the 22v and 24v are genuine mits wheels and in fact are updated in design much like the HTA wheel. here is a picture of the 24v
the frist wheel is the HTA 35, the one two its right is the 35r. below them is the 24v next to the 25g. The 24v has all the cool characteristics of the HTA wheel. I question where Robert got the Idea to make HTA wheels. cause it looks to me mitsubishi had the ideas first.
Ouch. Thanks for the REAL info.
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