HELP! Need Turbo NOW!
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Colorado
HELP! Need Turbo NOW!
So, I decided to procrastinate on picking out the turbo for my new setup and the clock is starting to tick and it's time to make a decision!!
I just got my head fully ported and polished... flowing 298.5 Intake and 285.8 Exhaust at 0.5002 Lift. I am doing Ferrea oversized stainless exhaust valves and stock sized Ferrea intake valves. Supertech dual springs, titanium retainers and the low profile seals. I will be using the Kelford 280 cams. Haven't decided if I'm going to use solid or hydraulic lifters yet...
The bottom end is stock (until I get a spare block built) so I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it a 2.0 or move up a bit.
I will be running AEM EMS on speed density and full 3 inch intercooler piping.
Stock Intake Manifold for now.
Double pump fuel pump.
The exhaust manifold that I currently have is a Shearer fab T04 flange running twin TiAL 44mm wastegates. I don't necessarily have to run this manifold but I have it and would like to use it!
I don't want this car to just be drag and I'm kinda bumming because I know anything using a T04 flange is going to be laggy... ZzzzZzzz~!!
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! I am off to put my head together now!
I just got my head fully ported and polished... flowing 298.5 Intake and 285.8 Exhaust at 0.5002 Lift. I am doing Ferrea oversized stainless exhaust valves and stock sized Ferrea intake valves. Supertech dual springs, titanium retainers and the low profile seals. I will be using the Kelford 280 cams. Haven't decided if I'm going to use solid or hydraulic lifters yet...
The bottom end is stock (until I get a spare block built) so I'm not sure if I'm going to keep it a 2.0 or move up a bit.
I will be running AEM EMS on speed density and full 3 inch intercooler piping.
Stock Intake Manifold for now.
Double pump fuel pump.
The exhaust manifold that I currently have is a Shearer fab T04 flange running twin TiAL 44mm wastegates. I don't necessarily have to run this manifold but I have it and would like to use it!
I don't want this car to just be drag and I'm kinda bumming because I know anything using a T04 flange is going to be laggy... ZzzzZzzz~!!
Any ideas would be greatly appreciated! I am off to put my head together now!
WOW, you are off to a great start with that manifold and head.
T4 doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be that laggy, at least relatively speaking, and depending on if you go with a stroker.
Let's pause here for a moment. First off, you said you don't want a drag car, and that's cool. Your parts have good potential for a high power, well rounded car that can perform very well for street, road race, AND drag.
What type of driving DO you see yourself doing? Street monster? Road racing? What fuel do you want to run? How much whp and torque do you want, and where in the powerband?
These things should be your primary factory in choosing your turbo and block build.
If you don't mind losing some top end RPM and want tons of midrange torque and fast spool (good for street and road racing as well), then a 2.3 will be a hot ticket to spooling your T4 turbo.
The Borg Warner S362 is a good value T4 turbo, but you should be aware that it's Journal bearing and oil cooled only. Not necessarily a bad thing at all, just worth mentioning.
I'd also consider the BW s360 of course.
If you are okay with journal, non-water cooled turbos this is even less expensive than the S362:
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
.84 is the max a/r though, not sure if that's really ideal. Some say you should go bigger, like 1.06, 1.22, etc..
For DBB T4 turbos, fancy one of these?
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
Either one of these on a twinscroll 2.3 should be amazing though. that's the stuff dreams are made of for me
I rode in a friends 2.3L Buschur 37r and it was crazy fast, but despite the 2.3 was still slightly too laggy for my taste in 2nd and part of 3rd. IIRC it spooled around 5300 RPM. Then again, I wasn't driving, and we didn't eve have enough room anywhere near where we were to really open it up hard in 3rd and 4th. either way, he made 521/432 on 91 at this high 6000'ish elev., and 610/552 on E85.
http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/in...4&st=0&start=0
A35R sized TS turbo though, I think would be perfect.
T4 doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be that laggy, at least relatively speaking, and depending on if you go with a stroker.
Let's pause here for a moment. First off, you said you don't want a drag car, and that's cool. Your parts have good potential for a high power, well rounded car that can perform very well for street, road race, AND drag.
What type of driving DO you see yourself doing? Street monster? Road racing? What fuel do you want to run? How much whp and torque do you want, and where in the powerband?
These things should be your primary factory in choosing your turbo and block build.
If you don't mind losing some top end RPM and want tons of midrange torque and fast spool (good for street and road racing as well), then a 2.3 will be a hot ticket to spooling your T4 turbo.
The Borg Warner S362 is a good value T4 turbo, but you should be aware that it's Journal bearing and oil cooled only. Not necessarily a bad thing at all, just worth mentioning.
I'd also consider the BW s360 of course.
If you are okay with journal, non-water cooled turbos this is even less expensive than the S362:
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
.84 is the max a/r though, not sure if that's really ideal. Some say you should go bigger, like 1.06, 1.22, etc..
For DBB T4 turbos, fancy one of these?
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
Either one of these on a twinscroll 2.3 should be amazing though. that's the stuff dreams are made of for me
I rode in a friends 2.3L Buschur 37r and it was crazy fast, but despite the 2.3 was still slightly too laggy for my taste in 2nd and part of 3rd. IIRC it spooled around 5300 RPM. Then again, I wasn't driving, and we didn't eve have enough room anywhere near where we were to really open it up hard in 3rd and 4th. either way, he made 521/432 on 91 at this high 6000'ish elev., and 610/552 on E85.
http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/in...4&st=0&start=0
A35R sized TS turbo though, I think would be perfect.
Last edited by hokiruu; Sep 17, 2008 at 08:53 PM.
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Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 36
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From: Colorado
WOW, you are off to a great start with that manifold and head.
T4 doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be that laggy, at least relatively speaking, and depending on if you go with a stroker.
Let's pause here for a moment. First off, you said you don't want a drag car, and that's cool. Your parts have good potential for a high power, well rounded car that can perform very well for street, road race, AND drag.
What type of driving DO you see yourself doing? Street monster? Road racing? What fuel do you want to run? How much whp and torque do you want, and where in the powerband?
These things should be your primary factory in choosing your turbo and block build.
If you don't mind losing some top end RPM and want tons of midrange torque and fast spool (good for street and road racing as well), then a 2.3 will be a hot ticket to spooling your T4 turbo.
The Borg Warner S362 is a good value T4 turbo, but you should be aware that it's Journal bearing and oil cooled only. Not necessarily a bad thing at all, just worth mentioning.
I'd also consider the BW s360 of course.
If you are okay with journal, non-water cooled turbos this is even less expensive than the S362:
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
.84 is the max a/r though, not sure if that's really ideal. Some say you should go bigger, like 1.06, 1.22, etc..
For DBB T4 turbos, fancy one of these?
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
Either one of these on a twinscroll 2.3 should be amazing though. that's the stuff dreams are made of for me
I rode in a friends 2.3L Buschur 37r and it was crazy fast, but despite the 2.3 was still slightly too laggy for my taste in 2nd and part of 3rd. IIRC it spooled around 5300 RPM. Then again, I wasn't driving, and we didn't eve have enough room anywhere near where we were to really open it up hard in 3rd and 4th. either way, he made 521/432 on 91 at this high 6000'ish elev., and 610/552 on E85.
http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/in...4&st=0&start=0
A35R sized TS turbo though, I think would be perfect.
T4 doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be that laggy, at least relatively speaking, and depending on if you go with a stroker.
Let's pause here for a moment. First off, you said you don't want a drag car, and that's cool. Your parts have good potential for a high power, well rounded car that can perform very well for street, road race, AND drag.
What type of driving DO you see yourself doing? Street monster? Road racing? What fuel do you want to run? How much whp and torque do you want, and where in the powerband?
These things should be your primary factory in choosing your turbo and block build.
If you don't mind losing some top end RPM and want tons of midrange torque and fast spool (good for street and road racing as well), then a 2.3 will be a hot ticket to spooling your T4 turbo.
The Borg Warner S362 is a good value T4 turbo, but you should be aware that it's Journal bearing and oil cooled only. Not necessarily a bad thing at all, just worth mentioning.
I'd also consider the BW s360 of course.
If you are okay with journal, non-water cooled turbos this is even less expensive than the S362:
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
.84 is the max a/r though, not sure if that's really ideal. Some say you should go bigger, like 1.06, 1.22, etc..
For DBB T4 turbos, fancy one of these?
http://www.full-race.com/catalog/pro...9b38b2281d7151
Either one of these on a twinscroll 2.3 should be amazing though. that's the stuff dreams are made of for me
I rode in a friends 2.3L Buschur 37r and it was crazy fast, but despite the 2.3 was still slightly too laggy for my taste in 2nd and part of 3rd. IIRC it spooled around 5300 RPM. Then again, I wasn't driving, and we didn't eve have enough room anywhere near where we were to really open it up hard in 3rd and 4th. either way, he made 521/432 on 91 at this high 6000'ish elev., and 610/552 on E85.
http://racingsouthwest.com/forums/in...4&st=0&start=0
A35R sized TS turbo though, I think would be perfect.
I have looked at those few on full-race's site that seem to be perfect but I am kind of worried about it just being oil-cooled and non-ball-bearing. What are the downsides to this?
Thanks so much for your help!!
I am going to try and decide by this weekend so I can get it ordered next week!
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
IF you off road the car then yeah I'm guessing response will be a biggie since you're likely sliding round alot and would be controlling the car with the throttle lots etcl.
So why not stay with the stock turbo?
Or an FP White with an uprated actuator...
Or an Evo Green with actuator...
...or a 3071 kit?
On E85 or race fuel any of the above could be a monster setup with that head, both on tarmac of gravel, and very driveable.
So why not stay with the stock turbo?
Or an FP White with an uprated actuator...
Or an Evo Green with actuator...
...or a 3071 kit?
On E85 or race fuel any of the above could be a monster setup with that head, both on tarmac of gravel, and very driveable.
Oh, well rally/offroad driving is a whole different world! Do you just want to do it on your own, or participate in organized races?
I am not very knowledgeable about the technical details, so please correct me if I am wrong. From what I have gathered and what seems to be the general consensus talking to people, non-water-cooled, journal bearing turbos present a somewhat double edged sword of concerns if you push them hard on a regular basis.
Besides typically around 500RPM slower spool than BB turbo (give or take a couple hundred RPM), they supposedly don't last quite as long as a BB turbo under hard use (possibly due to less cooling among other things), can't usually be rebuilt as easily, and obviously oil AND water cooled turbos will withstand the heat generated by hard driving better, and keep their bearings happier because of this. Having less durable, hard or impossible to replace bearings, that have less cooling, are some symbiotic downsides that make BB turbos more appealing despite their higher price. In addition, lack of water cooling at the turbo could contribute to higher oil temps in general, so that's another thing to keep in mind, as you may need an even bigger oil cooler if you are going to push it hard.
For their benefits, and it doesn't sound like you're on a particularly small budget, ball bearing is probably worth the extra money.
Of course people have built many very fast cars that see severe use using journal bearing turbos for a long time before BB turbos were widely available/affordable. On the other hand, a lot of them were treated as somewhat disposable, especially in the rally world.
Even on a 2.3 TS setup, unless you have very long, safe, wide-open dirt/gravel roads you'll be driving on, I think a 37R or 35R could be too big, or at least bigger than necessary.
Green, Red, and 30R would probably more appropriate if you still want over 360ish whp. Despite how awesome a bigger TS T4 turbo is, you could sell that manifold in a day and use the money to buy a Red or Green. 2.3 with a Red has already proven to be a delicious combination, especially on E85
(over 550whp, and almost identical, bruttally hard torque somehwere in the 4000RPM range, and holding till redline.
I'd recommend you look into what rally Evos are using, with an open mind but still keeping in mind that what works for a purpose-built rally car may not necessarily be the best thing for you. You may be surprised at how small (relatively speaking) turbos they are using a lot of the time. I know that some are definitely using pretty big turbos though, but they may be benefitting from anti-lag to help them reach boost faster.
In any case, you better have a full cage, seat, harness, and be a damn good driver to be flying through the woods with 500+whp if you intend to use it
I am not very knowledgeable about the technical details, so please correct me if I am wrong. From what I have gathered and what seems to be the general consensus talking to people, non-water-cooled, journal bearing turbos present a somewhat double edged sword of concerns if you push them hard on a regular basis.
Besides typically around 500RPM slower spool than BB turbo (give or take a couple hundred RPM), they supposedly don't last quite as long as a BB turbo under hard use (possibly due to less cooling among other things), can't usually be rebuilt as easily, and obviously oil AND water cooled turbos will withstand the heat generated by hard driving better, and keep their bearings happier because of this. Having less durable, hard or impossible to replace bearings, that have less cooling, are some symbiotic downsides that make BB turbos more appealing despite their higher price. In addition, lack of water cooling at the turbo could contribute to higher oil temps in general, so that's another thing to keep in mind, as you may need an even bigger oil cooler if you are going to push it hard.
For their benefits, and it doesn't sound like you're on a particularly small budget, ball bearing is probably worth the extra money.
Of course people have built many very fast cars that see severe use using journal bearing turbos for a long time before BB turbos were widely available/affordable. On the other hand, a lot of them were treated as somewhat disposable, especially in the rally world.
Even on a 2.3 TS setup, unless you have very long, safe, wide-open dirt/gravel roads you'll be driving on, I think a 37R or 35R could be too big, or at least bigger than necessary.
Green, Red, and 30R would probably more appropriate if you still want over 360ish whp. Despite how awesome a bigger TS T4 turbo is, you could sell that manifold in a day and use the money to buy a Red or Green. 2.3 with a Red has already proven to be a delicious combination, especially on E85
(over 550whp, and almost identical, bruttally hard torque somehwere in the 4000RPM range, and holding till redline.I'd recommend you look into what rally Evos are using, with an open mind but still keeping in mind that what works for a purpose-built rally car may not necessarily be the best thing for you. You may be surprised at how small (relatively speaking) turbos they are using a lot of the time. I know that some are definitely using pretty big turbos though, but they may be benefitting from anti-lag to help them reach boost faster.
In any case, you better have a full cage, seat, harness, and be a damn good driver to be flying through the woods with 500+whp if you intend to use it
Last edited by hokiruu; Sep 18, 2008 at 02:41 PM.
Thread Starter
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Joined: Jan 2005
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From: Colorado
This quest seems to be harder than I thought it was going to be.
It would be so much easier if I could deal with turbo lag and didn't have the constant need to rip it around the streets and through fields/dirt roads, etc!
I am sitting on the fence with this manifold right now, keep it or sell it?
If I get a T3 flanged manifold that would open up my choices a lot more for sure, but the Shearer manifold is just plain wicked!!
It would be so much easier if I could deal with turbo lag and didn't have the constant need to rip it around the streets and through fields/dirt roads, etc!
I am sitting on the fence with this manifold right now, keep it or sell it?
If I get a T3 flanged manifold that would open up my choices a lot more for sure, but the Shearer manifold is just plain wicked!!
Evolving Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 398
Likes: 0
From: Dubai
But ripping it is the whole point, innit?
I'm sure you could sell that mani for a pretty good price...or keep it "just in case". Would look awesome hanging on the wall.
If you really want to use a huge turbo you'll probably need to look at stroker kits to get it to spool and to beef up the bottom end a bit. So there you go - maybe a good excuse to rip into the bottom end and build it up to mathc the head - and/or just keep the header around till then?
Only problem with strokers is you lose revs. Something to think about.
I'm sure you could sell that mani for a pretty good price...or keep it "just in case". Would look awesome hanging on the wall.
If you really want to use a huge turbo you'll probably need to look at stroker kits to get it to spool and to beef up the bottom end a bit. So there you go - maybe a good excuse to rip into the bottom end and build it up to mathc the head - and/or just keep the header around till then?
Only problem with strokers is you lose revs. Something to think about.
Thread Starter
Newbie
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 36
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From: Colorado
I am planning on building the bottom end in the next few months with a spare block so that all I have to do is swap it out. I'll be doing the tranny at the same time since I'm sure it will be on it's way out the door once this new power comes in!
I am just trying to decide if it would be alright to get a non-ballbearing oil only cooled turbo. Have any advise on that? I know their a lot cheaper but what about the long term affects?
I am just trying to decide if it would be alright to get a non-ballbearing oil only cooled turbo. Have any advise on that? I know their a lot cheaper but what about the long term affects?