Cylinder head testing - Part 1 - 823 whp base line on HTA88
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 210
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From: Cincinnati Ohio
Value of airflow is proven, but when dealing with a maxed out turbo, are you going to get more air? In this situation all the air that goes in to the engine comes from the turbo. Making ports larger is essentially the same as adding length to intercooler piping. You have to spin the turbo harder to create the same psi. Maybe its more does this take that particular turbo out of its efficiency range that is the question to be asked?
Last edited by jimib; Apr 1, 2009 at 10:43 AM.
94awdcoupe,
I too agree with just about every single thing you have said, especially about combination of parts, as everyone knows, I do a hell of a lot of testing myself.
I do not agree about the cylinder head though. I am not aware of the head swapping that went on at the shootout.
I do know for a fact that there are some heads that are screwed up by a lot of people and I've seen many that I am sure a stock head would outperform.
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
I see a lot of guys who port their exhaust manifolds to match the steel exhaust gasket and I see people porting the heads to match that, I do not agree with that process and have found it to not work well.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
Also, as for Al's engine being down. I'd venture to guess with that one hole down, unless it is some serious damage, fixing it will make NO difference on the dyno. Some of the fastest times I have ever run and some of the highest numbers I have ever produced on the dyno were with engines so worn out and down on compression they were hard to even start. Once, we had to hit my RS with starting fluid to even get it to fire, then it made the highest HP ever following that. Rebuilt the engine, put it back in the car, NO gains, NONE.
We had the same thing happen in Colorado with the old tube car. Some knuckle head (me) put the pistons in backwards. So of course the small valve reliefs weren't enough for the intake valves and it bent the valves. After turning the pistons around in the bore (had no ring compressor at the track) we put the head back on and knew the valves were bent. The car would not start, filled it with starting fluid and got it to fire then held it on the rev limiter to get it as hot as we could and hopefully slam the valves around enough to straighten them out. Well it worked, compression in the highest cylinder was 90 psi. The car ran 8.1 at 5,000+ feet, the best it had ever run was 7.9 at the time.
I too agree with just about every single thing you have said, especially about combination of parts, as everyone knows, I do a hell of a lot of testing myself.
I do not agree about the cylinder head though. I am not aware of the head swapping that went on at the shootout.
I do know for a fact that there are some heads that are screwed up by a lot of people and I've seen many that I am sure a stock head would outperform.
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
I see a lot of guys who port their exhaust manifolds to match the steel exhaust gasket and I see people porting the heads to match that, I do not agree with that process and have found it to not work well.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
Also, as for Al's engine being down. I'd venture to guess with that one hole down, unless it is some serious damage, fixing it will make NO difference on the dyno. Some of the fastest times I have ever run and some of the highest numbers I have ever produced on the dyno were with engines so worn out and down on compression they were hard to even start. Once, we had to hit my RS with starting fluid to even get it to fire, then it made the highest HP ever following that. Rebuilt the engine, put it back in the car, NO gains, NONE.
We had the same thing happen in Colorado with the old tube car. Some knuckle head (me) put the pistons in backwards. So of course the small valve reliefs weren't enough for the intake valves and it bent the valves. After turning the pistons around in the bore (had no ring compressor at the track) we put the head back on and knew the valves were bent. The car would not start, filled it with starting fluid and got it to fire then held it on the rev limiter to get it as hot as we could and hopefully slam the valves around enough to straighten them out. Well it worked, compression in the highest cylinder was 90 psi. The car ran 8.1 at 5,000+ feet, the best it had ever run was 7.9 at the time.
94awdcoupe,
I too agree with just about every single thing you have said, especially about combination of parts, as everyone knows, I do a hell of a lot of testing myself.
I do not agree about the cylinder head though. I am not aware of the head swapping that went on at the shootout.
I do know for a fact that there are some heads that are screwed up by a lot of people and I've seen many that I am sure a stock head would outperform.
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
I see a lot of guys who port their exhaust manifolds to match the steel exhaust gasket and I see people porting the heads to match that, I do not agree with that process and have found it to not work well.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
Also, as for Al's engine being down. I'd venture to guess with that one hole down, unless it is some serious damage, fixing it will make NO difference on the dyno. Some of the fastest times I have ever run and some of the highest numbers I have ever produced on the dyno were with engines so worn out and down on compression they were hard to even start. Once, we had to hit my RS with starting fluid to even get it to fire, then it made the highest HP ever following that. Rebuilt the engine, put it back in the car, NO gains, NONE.
We had the same thing happen in Colorado with the old tube car. Some knuckle head (me) put the pistons in backwards. So of course the small valve reliefs weren't enough for the intake valves and it bent the valves. After turning the pistons around in the bore (had no ring compressor at the track) we put the head back on and knew the valves were bent. The car would not start, filled it with starting fluid and got it to fire then held it on the rev limiter to get it as hot as we could and hopefully slam the valves around enough to straighten them out. Well it worked, compression in the highest cylinder was 90 psi. The car ran 8.1 at 5,000+ feet, the best it had ever run was 7.9 at the time.
I too agree with just about every single thing you have said, especially about combination of parts, as everyone knows, I do a hell of a lot of testing myself.
I do not agree about the cylinder head though. I am not aware of the head swapping that went on at the shootout.
I do know for a fact that there are some heads that are screwed up by a lot of people and I've seen many that I am sure a stock head would outperform.
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
I see a lot of guys who port their exhaust manifolds to match the steel exhaust gasket and I see people porting the heads to match that, I do not agree with that process and have found it to not work well.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
Also, as for Al's engine being down. I'd venture to guess with that one hole down, unless it is some serious damage, fixing it will make NO difference on the dyno. Some of the fastest times I have ever run and some of the highest numbers I have ever produced on the dyno were with engines so worn out and down on compression they were hard to even start. Once, we had to hit my RS with starting fluid to even get it to fire, then it made the highest HP ever following that. Rebuilt the engine, put it back in the car, NO gains, NONE.
We had the same thing happen in Colorado with the old tube car. Some knuckle head (me) put the pistons in backwards. So of course the small valve reliefs weren't enough for the intake valves and it bent the valves. After turning the pistons around in the bore (had no ring compressor at the track) we put the head back on and knew the valves were bent. The car would not start, filled it with starting fluid and got it to fire then held it on the rev limiter to get it as hot as we could and hopefully slam the valves around enough to straighten them out. Well it worked, compression in the highest cylinder was 90 psi. The car ran 8.1 at 5,000+ feet, the best it had ever run was 7.9 at the time.
I have experienced just that as well.. Had bent valves on 1 of my motors last year because we were in a rush and never bled the lifters when we swapped cams.. the motor made 100psi compression across the board.. I ran 155mph at atco with that setup.. Fixed the valves and car went 154-155 on 140 or so cranking compression after that.. Its funny how it works but as i have heard some Genius Tuner on here say " if your down 30psi cranking compression its the same as running 30psi less boost ".. that there was hilarious!!!
Mike
sure you can make good power with a stock head. But, you can make the same power at a lower boost level with a ported head..no matter the power level. Some pump gas customers prefer that option. They surely don't need to spend the extra $2199 for a head, to make 500whp but they also want to not have crank the boost up to do so. They want the faster spool that a head designed for that will provide as well. It's something you should be buying to increase the efficency of the engine. Paying attention to velocity in the port via cross sectional area, valve job, bowl diameter and combustion chamber design is going to provide that. If it were not true, there would be no cylinder head shops in business that modify it. There would be no shops that sell it. It's not something that you see proven at one race, or one time on the dyno. That is something that has stood the test of time. Poorly designed or heads not designed for the application might make it difficult to sometimes realize real results..but that is up to the designer of the combination. I know I have dedicated my life to this, and have never been let down by the smile on the guys face the first time he hits the loud pedal and feels the difference a ported head makes. In some instances, they might not have needed it..but sure are glad they did.
It was mentioned Rau and and Shep may have ran well without the ported head for a race but I know for a fact they didn't keep it that way.. they got that ported head fixed and back on the car..I mean your talking about guys who run close to 70psi of boost, they need that efficiency in their engine! You seriously have a better chance of growing a vagina then a properly ported and valve jobbed head
not making power on almost anything you put it on...
It was mentioned Rau and and Shep may have ran well without the ported head for a race but I know for a fact they didn't keep it that way.. they got that ported head fixed and back on the car..I mean your talking about guys who run close to 70psi of boost, they need that efficiency in their engine! You seriously have a better chance of growing a vagina then a properly ported and valve jobbed head
not making power on almost anything you put it on...
Are you serious? and is this the same person I've talked to you about before?
-E
Evolving Member
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 210
Likes: 2
From: Cincinnati Ohio
94awdcoupe,
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
.
There are areas of the head that are important for flow and then there are areas of the head that are important for keeping detonation to a minimum. The bowl area is one of the bigger increases in flow we have found but the combustion chamber work has proven to provide the most room for more power through tuning.
A 25 whp cam change is easier than swapping a head but once you've done the cams and other parts the head is the other 25 whp you were looking for and many times the head work is required to run a cam that gives you 75+whp instead of 25 whp.
.
And I love hearing hardcore racing stories!
Thank you for the continued education Scorke, I appreciate it. Soon, if I keep listening to you and try very hard, I could with the grace of God, actually own or atleast maybe build a fast car. I may even get lucky and be able to build one that can do more than run for a few seconds at a time for just a drag race. I'm going to pray tonight for help but for now I will just give thanks to be able to read your posts. Thank you so much.
Have a nice day.
Have a nice day.
For some reason, try as hard as I can, I just can't imagine those words coming out of your mouth! The "happy pills" must be working
Mike
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
sure you can make good power with a stock head. But, you can make the same power at a lower boost level with a ported head..no matter the power level. Some pump gas customers prefer that option. They surely don't need to spend the extra $2199 for a head, to make 500whp but they also want to not have crank the boost up to do so. They want the faster spool that a head designed for that will provide as well. It's something you should be buying to increase the efficency of the engine. Paying attention to velocity in the port via cross sectional area, valve job, bowl diameter and combustion chamber design is going to provide that. If it were not true, there would be no cylinder head shops in business that modify it. There would be no shops that sell it. It's not something that you see proven at one race, or one time on the dyno. That is something that has stood the test of time. Poorly designed or heads not designed for the application might make it difficult to sometimes realize real results..but that is up to the designer of the combination. I know I have dedicated my life to this, and have never been let down by the smile on the guys face the first time he hits the loud pedal and feels the difference a ported head makes. In some instances, they might not have needed it..but sure are glad they did.
It was mentioned Rau and and Shep may have ran well without the ported head for a race but I know for a fact they didn't keep it that way.. they got that ported head fixed and back on the car..I mean your talking about guys who run close to 70psi of boost, they need that efficiency in their engine! You seriously have a better chance of growing a vagina then a properly ported and valve jobbed head
not making power on almost anything you put it on...
It was mentioned Rau and and Shep may have ran well without the ported head for a race but I know for a fact they didn't keep it that way.. they got that ported head fixed and back on the car..I mean your talking about guys who run close to 70psi of boost, they need that efficiency in their engine! You seriously have a better chance of growing a vagina then a properly ported and valve jobbed head
not making power on almost anything you put it on...
I am not a guy running pump gas at 20 psi trying to pick up 20 more whp
Al
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From: 2003 Evo VIII - Silver
BTW - one thing to note
With the non ported stock head I could not spool the .81 T4 back housing and it did not work well
With the ported head now the .81 is spooling the same as the .63 a/r housing. Now I am considering a bigger housing.
I am starting to lean on the very real possibility that the HTA88 is just out of steam
Maybe some of you guys can help me with this - who is making the most power without nos on a T67 or HTA88 turbo
Al
With the non ported stock head I could not spool the .81 T4 back housing and it did not work well
With the ported head now the .81 is spooling the same as the .63 a/r housing. Now I am considering a bigger housing.
I am starting to lean on the very real possibility that the HTA88 is just out of steam
Maybe some of you guys can help me with this - who is making the most power without nos on a T67 or HTA88 turbo
Al
BTW - one thing to note
With the non ported stock head I could not spool the .81 T4 back housing and it did not work well
With the ported head now the .81 is spooling the same as the .63 a/r housing. Now I am considering a bigger housing.
I am starting to lean on the very real possibility that the HTA88 is just out of steam
Maybe some of you guys can help me with this - who is making the most power without nos on a T67 or HTA88 turbo
Al
With the non ported stock head I could not spool the .81 T4 back housing and it did not work well
With the ported head now the .81 is spooling the same as the .63 a/r housing. Now I am considering a bigger housing.
I am starting to lean on the very real possibility that the HTA88 is just out of steam
Maybe some of you guys can help me with this - who is making the most power without nos on a T67 or HTA88 turbo
Al
we made 745 on standard pt67 turbo.. Dynojet power..
Mike
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From: philly