I have a fp red on my car and supporting and the boost spikes to 27psi, what should i
Apr 18, 2009, 12:02 AM
#31
Apr 22, 2009, 03:36 AM
#32
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So forced performance messed up. they should be porting the wastegate outlet on the hot side of the fp red. To elimanate boost creep. Cause i read people with no o2 dumps on their fp red turbos still get boost creep.
Last edited by dipsetinallday; Apr 22, 2009 at 03:39 AM.
Apr 22, 2009, 05:45 AM
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I haven't had an FP ported turbine housing in my hands to examine heir port job, but I have seen some pictures of the work, posted up on this forum.
Originally, when they started to offer a "porting option" on the 16G 10.5 housings, it was a very minor gasket match at the turbine inlet flange area. However, more recently, they have improved the porting job that they offer. Now, they extend the porting further down into the turbine inlet area("Deep Porting"). Also, they port the turbine discharge, or exducer area, which unshrouds the turbine wheel's exducer.
Due to the improved porting, exhaust gas flow straight through the housing, and across the turbine blades has been improved, exhaust back pressure within the housing has been reduced, the pressure differential has been improved. Flow through the main scroll area is thus greatly enhanced.
The Red uses a larger and heavier high mass, higher inertia turbine wheel. The improved porting gets this bigger wheel spinning faster. The problem is that if it spins faster, the higher mass wheel also becomes harder to slow down. The as cast turbine bypass port(s) in the 10.5 housing can't adequatelly bleed off the exhaust gases to slow down the high mass turbine wheel. So, the turbo tends to overshoot the target boost level.
So, in a nutshell, better porting increases exhaust gas velocities and reduces backpressure and improves the pressure differential across the turbine, which results in a more efficient, high mass turbine whose rotational movement is more difficult for the tiny right angled bypass ports to effecively control. So, you get creep.
More time has to be spent grinding on the initial turn in radii of the bypass ports to improve wastegate bypass flow. You can do this pretty easily at home in your garage and it only takes about an hour, even if you take your time and use flapper wheels.
Originally, when they started to offer a "porting option" on the 16G 10.5 housings, it was a very minor gasket match at the turbine inlet flange area. However, more recently, they have improved the porting job that they offer. Now, they extend the porting further down into the turbine inlet area("Deep Porting"). Also, they port the turbine discharge, or exducer area, which unshrouds the turbine wheel's exducer.
Due to the improved porting, exhaust gas flow straight through the housing, and across the turbine blades has been improved, exhaust back pressure within the housing has been reduced, the pressure differential has been improved. Flow through the main scroll area is thus greatly enhanced.
The Red uses a larger and heavier high mass, higher inertia turbine wheel. The improved porting gets this bigger wheel spinning faster. The problem is that if it spins faster, the higher mass wheel also becomes harder to slow down. The as cast turbine bypass port(s) in the 10.5 housing can't adequatelly bleed off the exhaust gases to slow down the high mass turbine wheel. So, the turbo tends to overshoot the target boost level.
So, in a nutshell, better porting increases exhaust gas velocities and reduces backpressure and improves the pressure differential across the turbine, which results in a more efficient, high mass turbine whose rotational movement is more difficult for the tiny right angled bypass ports to effecively control. So, you get creep.
More time has to be spent grinding on the initial turn in radii of the bypass ports to improve wastegate bypass flow. You can do this pretty easily at home in your garage and it only takes about an hour, even if you take your time and use flapper wheels.
Last edited by sparky; May 3, 2009 at 10:57 AM.
Apr 22, 2009, 09:54 AM
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We've had 4-5 FPred equipped evos tuned so far, both with no wastegate outlet porting whatsoever, normal tubular 02 housing (titek), and ECU-controlled boost with no creep issues whatsoever on 91,100,110 octane, from 24psi to 31psi.
May 3, 2009, 09:47 AM
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Well I guess "Hard" can be subjective but I don't think I run my car that hard. My daily commute is 80 miles roundtrip and I cruise at an average of 65-70mph. Sometimes I roll onto the gas on an onramp or something. I do however get a kick out of launching the car. Betwen street/strip I've probably launched the car 30+ times. My creep issue shows up in 4/5th gears. It hasn't been as apparent since it got warmer but on cold days it definately hit 27psi. I rarely ever windout in 4th gear so it's not like I've driven it at a sustained 27psi. Yesterday I decided to "punch it" in 4th till about 6k rpm and it creeped to 26psi and my AFR was reading 11.1 until I let off. I'm gonna post a reply that I got from Robert at Forced Performance when asked about the porting option and if it was "fix" for boost creep on the non-ported Reds...... here is what he said.
It isnt helpful for boost creep when done to EVO8 and 9 type housings. The turbo isnt why the EVO8 and 9 get creep problems it is the creep himself that is normally causing the creeping It is a power thing, helps get that last little bit out of the turbo. OMK to send the whole thing back, we will handle it. NP
BOOSTON!
Robert
BOOSTON!
Robert
May 3, 2009, 09:48 AM
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I'm not going to worry too much about the pump gas tune because I don't typically run it hard. As for the meth tune I'll be getting, it won't matter because I'll be set around 30-32psi.
May 3, 2009, 10:00 AM
#40
I have had the same problem with my Red and it is portedby MilSpec pretty heavily. We were able to control it with the 3 port when using an Invidia 02, but once I went with the MAP integrated o2/Dp it went crazy, No matter what the tuner did, it didn't matter. We even dropped boost to nada, rigged up a mechanism to open the WG manually and it still creeped. I took the hotside to port out the smaller bypass ports and dropped it off last week. I also ditched the MAP piece because there is no direct path for the air the way it is built so rather than removing it again, I just decided to go back to the Invidia. I'm tired of creep issues with this Red and the dump
May 3, 2009, 10:09 AM
#41
We have yet to dynotest any gains from an external dump O2 housing.
Ryuturbo had one that did not fit correctly from an evom vendor and ended up selling it for a Megan racing O2.
He makes 563whp/547wtq on the EvoRed running 10.3@133mph on a slipping clutch on a Megan Racing O2 housing for $99.
Those are some facts to back up our claims.
May 3, 2009, 11:09 AM
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Most of the EvoRed turbos that come through your shop are equipped with the Forge WGA, arenīt they Bryan? I wonder whether some of the Reds suffering from boost creep have been fitted with the FP HD (18#)actuator, which many say has a built in spike of some 3-4 PSI? Do you think that this FP actuator may in some cases be a contributing factor to some of the creep issues with the Red?
Last edited by sparky; May 3, 2009 at 02:45 PM.
May 3, 2009, 02:54 PM
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[quote=TTP Engineering;7015209]They were created to make noise for those of us who need attention they did not get from their mother as a child......
Then they are nothing less than the exhaust side equivalent to screeching/squawking BOVīs?
Then they are nothing less than the exhaust side equivalent to screeching/squawking BOVīs?
May 3, 2009, 03:14 PM
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Most of the EvoRed turbos that come through your shop are equipped with the Forge WGA, arenīt they Bryan? I wonder whether some of the Reds suffering from boost creep have been fitted with the FP HD (18#)actuator, which many say has a built in spike of some 3-4 PSI? Do you think that this FP actuator may in some cases be a contributing factor to some of the creep issues with the Red?