Ultra-High RPM Dual Valve Spring / Titanium Retainer Set
Dec 7, 2009, 04:29 PM
#31
MIke
Dec 7, 2009, 05:00 PM
#32
Now i know what your thinking.. how can mike hear them floating in the head?? LOL From experience once again its not the float you hear its the tone of the motor when it happens in high RPM..
Thats exactly what I was thinking. you cant hear the valves themselves floating. like you can hear detonation. what you hear is the engine change tone from loss of power. instead of point this out I erased the post. but you replied like instantly so here we are.
you ever hear the saying "mean what you say, and say what you mean" ?
Its difficult enough to have a technical discussion when you use poor terminology. its even worse when you get defensive when it gets corrected.
Thats exactly what I was thinking. you cant hear the valves themselves floating. like you can hear detonation. what you hear is the engine change tone from loss of power. instead of point this out I erased the post. but you replied like instantly so here we are.
you ever hear the saying "mean what you say, and say what you mean" ?
Its difficult enough to have a technical discussion when you use poor terminology. its even worse when you get defensive when it gets corrected.
Dec 7, 2009, 05:05 PM
#33
Now i know what your thinking.. how can mike hear them floating in the head?? LOL From experience once again its not the float you hear its the tone of the motor when it happens in high RPM..
Thats exactly what I was thinking. you cant hear the valves themselves floating. like you can hear detonation. what you hear is the engine change tone from loss of power. instead of point this out I erased the post. but you replied like instantly so here we are.
you ever hear the saying "mean what you say, and say what you mean" ?
Its difficult enough to have a technical discussion when you use poor terminology. its even worse when you get defensive when it gets corrected.
Thats exactly what I was thinking. you cant hear the valves themselves floating. like you can hear detonation. what you hear is the engine change tone from loss of power. instead of point this out I erased the post. but you replied like instantly so here we are.
you ever hear the saying "mean what you say, and say what you mean" ?
Its difficult enough to have a technical discussion when you use poor terminology. its even worse when you get defensive when it gets corrected.
Either way its the internet man.. John bradley didnt have any issue understanding my typing.. I speak pretty good english.. My contribution to this thread is done... Later..
Dec 7, 2009, 05:09 PM
#34
Seems to be that everything on here turns into a argument, most vendors on here have more knowledge and experience than the average member or they wouldnt stay in business, If Mike didnt know what he was talking about there wouldnt be any 8-9-10 second evos with AWD on the back of them so he must know what he is doing. This "member" measuring contest or challenging vendors knowledge on here is getting way out of hand. Mike is spot on in what he is saying.
Justin
Justin
Dec 7, 2009, 05:11 PM
#35
There is a technical distinction between the two terms, but valve float leads to valve bounce. The basic concept is that you need enough spring to keep the rocker on the lobe of the cam. When the lobe has too much accelleration in its shape for the spring to keep the rocker following the lobe, you get valve float. Yes, it gives "more lift" because it's not controlled.
But, what goes up (uncontrolled) must come down, and when it does, still out of camshaft control, it's not a smooth landing. If the valve is not set down under control, and the spring is not balanced by the cam lobe in setting the valve down, the spring snaps the valve shut, often creating a residual bounce. It also has the capacity to weaken the valve head to stem junction, and "pull" the head off of the valve, which then causes "loss of power" (as well as destroys your piston, combustion chamber, and the like).
Want to see a cool video from kiggly of valve springs in high RPM slow motion action? http://www.kigglyracing.com/parts/im...ive_Spring.avi
So, too much valve spring can cause loss of power from the force it needs to compress them as compared to a lighter spring, but too little valve spring tension can cause float, bounce, and engine destruction. Which option would you prefer?
But, what goes up (uncontrolled) must come down, and when it does, still out of camshaft control, it's not a smooth landing. If the valve is not set down under control, and the spring is not balanced by the cam lobe in setting the valve down, the spring snaps the valve shut, often creating a residual bounce. It also has the capacity to weaken the valve head to stem junction, and "pull" the head off of the valve, which then causes "loss of power" (as well as destroys your piston, combustion chamber, and the like).
Want to see a cool video from kiggly of valve springs in high RPM slow motion action? http://www.kigglyracing.com/parts/im...ive_Spring.avi
So, too much valve spring can cause loss of power from the force it needs to compress them as compared to a lighter spring, but too little valve spring tension can cause float, bounce, and engine destruction. Which option would you prefer?
Dec 7, 2009, 05:21 PM
#36
Whatever you want to call it, it sounds like the engine changed into an old fashioned washboard. You feel it lay over (loss of power), in my case I could see it knock at the same time. That is the stock ECU for you though wanting to call everything knock. The same exact setup with a change to some FPs resulted in an ultra clean power band like this:
Last edited by JohnBradley; Dec 7, 2009 at 05:27 PM.
Dec 7, 2009, 07:54 PM
#38
I am running Brian Crower valve springs/ti retainers @ 93lbs of seat pressure and so far so good for at least 8600rpm. Of course my stock ones would do that as well, although I did get a strange single knock count around 8300, which is now gone, so maybe the stock ones were floating around 8300. My friend ran the same ones (Brian Crowers) in his talon to 9500rpm with no issues for a few years. Kiggleys are overkill unless you have a huge t4 turbo. My same fiend also owned a set of those (Kiggleys) when he upgraded to a 42r and he said turning the motor over by hand with those was a ***** lol
Last edited by fre; Dec 8, 2009 at 08:13 PM.
Dec 8, 2009, 08:36 AM
#39
I'm not trying to argue with you here, just get the facts straight, but FP clearly states 9k RPM on their website. I'm in the market for either these springs or GSC's and am having a tough time finding any actual differences and whether one is a better choice than the other.
Last edited by Kracka; Dec 8, 2009 at 08:40 AM.
Dec 8, 2009, 03:46 PM
#41
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there is much more that goes into choosing the correct valve spring than RPM and boost pressure. The best source of information will come from your camshaft manufacturer. You can either ask them directly or ask one of the dealers as they usually have a better understand or have already asked what to use with which cam.
Most know about valve float and use it as a generic term to talk about every aspect of a valve spring being inferior. There are more things that go into valve spring design than just valve float, engine rpm, and boost pressures. Things like valve bounce, flutter, jerk, spring rising rate, seat pressure, spring frequency are some of the aspects of spring terms.
Now as far as the OEM Mitsu spring. while it does have a good seat pressure there is absolutely no rise in pressure. This is common on an oem application as the constraints of the spring are defined by what the outputs are going to be from the factory. Some ask questions like are the OEM valve springs up to the task of increasing the rev limit? Well yes on the factory cam they sure are. they are designed to keep the valves from floating if a slight mechanical over rev occurs on the stock cams. What is commonly a safety net for the OEM designed products, becomes useful for the aftermarket applications.
Most know about valve float and use it as a generic term to talk about every aspect of a valve spring being inferior. There are more things that go into valve spring design than just valve float, engine rpm, and boost pressures. Things like valve bounce, flutter, jerk, spring rising rate, seat pressure, spring frequency are some of the aspects of spring terms.
Now as far as the OEM Mitsu spring. while it does have a good seat pressure there is absolutely no rise in pressure. This is common on an oem application as the constraints of the spring are defined by what the outputs are going to be from the factory. Some ask questions like are the OEM valve springs up to the task of increasing the rev limit? Well yes on the factory cam they sure are. they are designed to keep the valves from floating if a slight mechanical over rev occurs on the stock cams. What is commonly a safety net for the OEM designed products, becomes useful for the aftermarket applications.
Dec 8, 2009, 08:02 PM
#42
I'm not trying to argue with you here, just get the facts straight, but FP clearly states 9k RPM on their website. I'm in the market for either these springs or GSC's and am having a tough time finding any actual differences and whether one is a better choice than the other.
http://store.forcedperformance.net/m...ode=DSM-Engine
