Engine Block
Hey Ferrarokid - don't sweat the trolls - the guys who are in the market for this type of engine work are getting the message loud and clear!!! Also - its a very interesting subject.
I would appreciate some prices for this kind of work
I would appreciate some prices for this kind of work
I searched around for the turbo that FerraroKid is getting. It looks like he is interested in the overpriced HKS 3037S, just like everyone else. Same-old, same-old.
Last edited by ferrarokid; Nov 27, 2003 at 06:53 PM.
Darkhorse,
Vendors post no useful information? I think you will find that I have posted tons of useful information on here. When it's all said and done we'll have to have a race sometime, see how we stand side by side.
Darkhorse,
Yes, we job out the machine work and do the final assembly here in house. Not only do I have no desire to own/operate my own machine shop it would be completely silly when the machine shop that does our work has been in business for about 40 years. These guys have built more engine than you or I ever will. I rely on their expertiece and experience for all of our work. There isn't anything wrong with approach, anything else would be ignorant.
You mentioned if you want to win "your" approach is the one to take in engine building. Well, you can go back and check and see if I have done any winning with these engines. If you recall we were the IDRC Pro Class Champions in 2002.
You also mentioned if you planned to push the envelope "your" way was again the way. Well I would say if anyone in this country has pushed the envelope with the 4g63 that would again qualify us.
The .0007 figure you gave for the main bores is WELL within spec. The line hone you mentioned was off a few thoasanths. I don't know what you came up with for an actual number but that is also well within spec.
The pictures you posted in the beginning and the comments you made came across as if you were calling the 4g63 a piece of ****. This was rediculous. Now that you have further clarified your points they make sense and so is what you are doing. Do I still think it is not needed? Yes. Why? Well we haven't found even a hand full of these blocks that had the line hone or mains off enough to have to re-machine. How many have we built that are still our there? All of them. Our failure rate on the engines we build from assembly or machine work is less than 1%. I can't remember the last time actually, so rather than writing 0% I figure I'd make it 1%!
We each have our ways of doing things, the point keeps coming up I am a drag racer. Well that would be fine if the only engine I ever built was for my personal drag car. Facts are is we ship these engines out of here left and right to customers that drive the cars daily and expect to get 100,000 miles out of them. Road racers, autocrossers, drag racers, dune buggies, street cars and street rods. That is what our engines are used in, that is alot more than "drag racing". They hold up and stay together day after day.
Good luck with your engine program.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Vendors post no useful information? I think you will find that I have posted tons of useful information on here. When it's all said and done we'll have to have a race sometime, see how we stand side by side.
Darkhorse,
Yes, we job out the machine work and do the final assembly here in house. Not only do I have no desire to own/operate my own machine shop it would be completely silly when the machine shop that does our work has been in business for about 40 years. These guys have built more engine than you or I ever will. I rely on their expertiece and experience for all of our work. There isn't anything wrong with approach, anything else would be ignorant.
You mentioned if you want to win "your" approach is the one to take in engine building. Well, you can go back and check and see if I have done any winning with these engines. If you recall we were the IDRC Pro Class Champions in 2002.
You also mentioned if you planned to push the envelope "your" way was again the way. Well I would say if anyone in this country has pushed the envelope with the 4g63 that would again qualify us.
The .0007 figure you gave for the main bores is WELL within spec. The line hone you mentioned was off a few thoasanths. I don't know what you came up with for an actual number but that is also well within spec.
The pictures you posted in the beginning and the comments you made came across as if you were calling the 4g63 a piece of ****. This was rediculous. Now that you have further clarified your points they make sense and so is what you are doing. Do I still think it is not needed? Yes. Why? Well we haven't found even a hand full of these blocks that had the line hone or mains off enough to have to re-machine. How many have we built that are still our there? All of them. Our failure rate on the engines we build from assembly or machine work is less than 1%. I can't remember the last time actually, so rather than writing 0% I figure I'd make it 1%!
We each have our ways of doing things, the point keeps coming up I am a drag racer. Well that would be fine if the only engine I ever built was for my personal drag car. Facts are is we ship these engines out of here left and right to customers that drive the cars daily and expect to get 100,000 miles out of them. Road racers, autocrossers, drag racers, dune buggies, street cars and street rods. That is what our engines are used in, that is alot more than "drag racing". They hold up and stay together day after day.
Good luck with your engine program.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Thread Starter
Evolving Member
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 227
Likes: 0
Mr. Buschur, I never said that vendors post no useful information, nor did I say that if you want to win or push the envelope that my approach was the best way. I don't want you to think that I ever said that your methods were subpar or anything of the sort. My posts never mentioned what you do is wrong either. All I did was put up some informantion that I had found. It didn't point a finger at anyone or any business in particular, it was just what I was doing. This is not a competition. Good luck to you as well.
I read through all of this and see the level of knowlege from both camps
i think darkhorse may be "doing more than neccisary" but on the flip side of that coin, when can you EVER prevent something too much?
I just wish we had some skilled people in alaska like this
good work, both of you
i think darkhorse may be "doing more than neccisary" but on the flip side of that coin, when can you EVER prevent something too much?
I just wish we had some skilled people in alaska like this
good work, both of you
I also found it interesting that even though Darkhorse NEVER said one bad word about Buschur, Dave got super defensive 
keep the info coming Darkhorse.... Im of the same philosophy as you when it comes to prep / fabrication
keep the info coming Darkhorse.... Im of the same philosophy as you when it comes to prep / fabrication
Ferraro was the who I was directing the first part of that post to.
The reason I got so defensive was this started out as a post that seemed to me was doing nothing but bashing the 4g63 engine. Then the pictures of the pistons and rods were posted that I thought were being posted to show 4g63 parts. Tym and myself both looked at them and could tell they weren't not to mention it looks like that failure was caused from improper clearances and not much else.
As for what you are doing Darkhorse, after explaining yourself more clearly (wish it didn't have to happen like it did) I see what you are after. I do still honestly think it isn't really needed. The numbers that are coming up when you check it, although they aren't exactly perfect to .00001, are still within spec, just as we find they are on the engines we do. I think we can both agree on this. If we were seeing ANY bearing failures caused by the specs we were using then we too would go through what you are to get it dead on. Fact is the bearings in a 4g63 is least of anyones worries and I think the time can be better spent on other parts of the engine.
Anyway, like I said before, good luck.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
The reason I got so defensive was this started out as a post that seemed to me was doing nothing but bashing the 4g63 engine. Then the pictures of the pistons and rods were posted that I thought were being posted to show 4g63 parts. Tym and myself both looked at them and could tell they weren't not to mention it looks like that failure was caused from improper clearances and not much else.
As for what you are doing Darkhorse, after explaining yourself more clearly (wish it didn't have to happen like it did) I see what you are after. I do still honestly think it isn't really needed. The numbers that are coming up when you check it, although they aren't exactly perfect to .00001, are still within spec, just as we find they are on the engines we do. I think we can both agree on this. If we were seeing ANY bearing failures caused by the specs we were using then we too would go through what you are to get it dead on. Fact is the bearings in a 4g63 is least of anyones worries and I think the time can be better spent on other parts of the engine.
Anyway, like I said before, good luck.
David Buschur
www.buschurracing.com
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere Up There
Buschur,
I think that it is great that you stand by what you believe and are able to undersatnd other peoples views. I, myself, think that Darkhorse's approach is very much needed for drag racing or everyday driving, however. Sure spending money on intake, exhaust, headers, etc., can definitely make a difference on the line, but what about with all of those cars that make it to the end or get to their 100,0001 mile and the engine blows? To me, whether you do it every single day or every now and then, skills and technique can come at any time. Some people work in the car business and others, maybe, are air traffic controllers, but at the end of the day, they are under the hood of their car. It doesn't make them better or worse then someone who does it 9 to 5. The company that does your engine work has to work with a deadline and be able bump out a certain amount of engines, leaving no room "to waste time" on perfection. Darkhorse, on the otherhand, does not do high volume work where he would have to do an overall fantastic job instead of focusing on the necessities of engine fabrication. For your line of work, yes I can COMPLETELY understand why you would not worry about the such things, because, as I said, you have more of a demand than he does. Darkhorse, in my opinion, is very talented and has a passion for such kind of engineering. There are SO many people in this kind of line of business who specialize in different fields. He does high quality work for those kind of people who want to drive home from the track and make it past the 100,001 mile. For everything there is a price. And I am sure that no matter what anyone may says, both of you are professionals and are the best at what you do.
I think that it is great that you stand by what you believe and are able to undersatnd other peoples views. I, myself, think that Darkhorse's approach is very much needed for drag racing or everyday driving, however. Sure spending money on intake, exhaust, headers, etc., can definitely make a difference on the line, but what about with all of those cars that make it to the end or get to their 100,0001 mile and the engine blows? To me, whether you do it every single day or every now and then, skills and technique can come at any time. Some people work in the car business and others, maybe, are air traffic controllers, but at the end of the day, they are under the hood of their car. It doesn't make them better or worse then someone who does it 9 to 5. The company that does your engine work has to work with a deadline and be able bump out a certain amount of engines, leaving no room "to waste time" on perfection. Darkhorse, on the otherhand, does not do high volume work where he would have to do an overall fantastic job instead of focusing on the necessities of engine fabrication. For your line of work, yes I can COMPLETELY understand why you would not worry about the such things, because, as I said, you have more of a demand than he does. Darkhorse, in my opinion, is very talented and has a passion for such kind of engineering. There are SO many people in this kind of line of business who specialize in different fields. He does high quality work for those kind of people who want to drive home from the track and make it past the 100,001 mile. For everything there is a price. And I am sure that no matter what anyone may says, both of you are professionals and are the best at what you do.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere Up There
When under a lot of pressure there is a lesser chance of stress cracks with a smoother surface than with a rigid one. Think of like this; there are two rivers, one has stones and rocks on the bottom and the other has sand. The river with the rocks is going to be more rough with rapids and will not flow smoothely. It will also stir up a lot of the stones and create erosion on the outer banks. The river with the sand on the bottom is going to be faster and more fluid without the uneven bottom, creating a calmer atmosphere. It is the same concept with the gridle.
Evolved Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,121
Likes: 1
Your analogy sounds nice, but fluid dynamics has little to do with why a block will or won't crack. There is no erosion on the interior of the block.
Over 12 years of people racing with these blocks has shown that they pretty much just don't crack. That was my reason for asking why this amount of maching would be required on a daily driver.
Over 12 years of people racing with these blocks has shown that they pretty much just don't crack. That was my reason for asking why this amount of maching would be required on a daily driver.
Newbie
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 9
Likes: 0
From: Somewhere Up There
My analogy wasn't to say that the block would crack or have erosion, but when driving a car, any car, hard for a long time there is a lot more wear in the engine. After awhile the car doesn't perform the way it did brand new. By polishing the block it will reduce that kind of wear tremendously. I'm sure that Ferrarokid is not a slow driver and will be beating on his Evo at any chance that he gets. If he has to drop some dollar signs to reinforce the strength of the engine so it can handle the boost I think it is well worth it.
For me, I wouldn't need to do all of that work, because I don't drive my cars hard all the time. But from reading the forums I have heard some stories of gaskets being blown and clutches being replaced left and right. Darkhorse and Ferrarokid seem to know what they are doing and I am very interested to hear more about it.
For me, I wouldn't need to do all of that work, because I don't drive my cars hard all the time. But from reading the forums I have heard some stories of gaskets being blown and clutches being replaced left and right. Darkhorse and Ferrarokid seem to know what they are doing and I am very interested to hear more about it.