ATP'S GARRETT GTX3582R product review
Feb 9, 2011, 07:28 PM
#64
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The whole GT3582R thing has been discussed at great length on other boards but possibly not here because of the two litre four cylinder engine these cars have .
I'll go into the as supplied Garrett GT3582R pre GTX era and come back to them .
All the "small frame" Garrett GT BB turbos use the same sized center section and bearing pack from the smallest GT2554R to the largest GT3582R .
All the turbines in this range ie TB25/GT28/GT30/GT35 are virtually interchangeable - specifically some differ to suit the axial length of the comp wheel and from memory the largest use a slightly larger diameter section the comp slides over .
The bearing housings are the same except they are machined to suit the major diameter of the comp wheel because it sits down in it .
The whole range of comp housings can fit the same bearing housings because the smallest fits directly with a circlip and the larger ones have adapter rings to adapt T series housings to the front of the bearing housing .
The GT3582R is a factory Garrett Bitzer because neither of its wheels are a close match to the housings Garrett supply for these turbos .
From what I can tell the T3 flanged turbine housings Garrett intends us to use are machined out GT30 castings so take one high temp spec GT30 T housing and bore it out to 68mm rather than 60mm and profile to suit the GT35 turbine .
Off the top of my head GT35 based diesel turbos were originally larger frame plain bearing units with bigger diameter shafts and bearings . They had 71mm/76mm/82mm compressor options and the better ones had GT40 series compressor housings .
As we know Garrett uses the 0.70 A/R T04S comp housings on their BB small frame GT3582R and I think its a bit lacking and would have been a marketing/bean counters decision rather than an engineers one .
I don't think the compressor maps for these units ever looked brilliant , the islands aren't exactly wide which I think tells us that the 82mm GT40 compressor is a bit big for that S housing .
Now Garrett use the 56 trim comp in these turbos but there are other smaller trim versions of this compressor family , 48/50/52/54/56 trims I found details of . HKS use the 50T version of this wheel in their spec GT3082R where Garrett's horror has the 56T in it .
To get a bit of an idea what the smaller trim wheels maps look like search for the GT4082 comp map , much wider ranging thing admittedly in a GT40 comp housing thats vaguely similar outline to a T04S .
If you go digging you will find that the earliest origins of these turbos was a special HKS had Garrett make and was called GT3240 . It's basically a GT35 turbine cropped back to GT32 like dimensions in 84 T and has the 54T version of the 82mm GT40 compressor . I believe HKS even does kits to fit these turbos onto 4G63's .
So rounding up I think Garrett went too big in the wheels with GT3582R's and was attempting to keep the unit reasonably compact for packaging reasons by using slightly inappropriate housings .
Move forward to the GTX compressor era . These compressor wheels for a given size move a bit more air than the GT series wheels they replaced do but how much can you gain if you use the same sized compressor housing .
The GTX3071R has moved up to a larger A/R size in the T04E comp housing family (0.50 to 0.60 A/R) and now has the 4 inch inlet port shrouded inlet boss . This is a logical move since the 71mm X comp has got closer to the airflow rates that a std GT3076R has and they work well in their native comp housings .
The GTX 76R and 82R units have gone nowhere with comp housings though the 82 one now has the port shrouded inlet standard .
As FullRace Geoff mentioned other mobs such as FP went to larger comp housings when they fitted higher capacity comp wheels and they wouldn't go to the trouble and expense for no reason .
As I said ATP appear to be using a smaller E family housing on their Evo 4-9 GT3582R kit and it remains to be seen how well it will work in the real world .
Actually Garrett supplied GT3582Rs to Ford here in Australia with the large 1.06 A/R IW turbine housing on one end and a 0.50 A/R T04E housing on the other . They were used on a 4L inline six in a low (4-6 lb) boost application .
ATP may be thinking along the same lines as the large ratio turbine housing and getting power from low restriction and twin scrolls .
With the later Typhoon version of that Ford XR6 Turbo Garrett supplied a hybrid GT3576R meaning the GT35 turbine and the 76mm compressor from the GT3076R , I'm not sure which comp housing they use - possibly the same 0.50 A/R E one .
Time and testing will tell the real story , I tend to think that biggish wheels in small/med trims and TS is where strong torque turbos are . Garrett seems to go the opposite way with modest sized wheels in big trims and single scroll turbine housings , I think they do this for packaging and cost reasons .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
I'll go into the as supplied Garrett GT3582R pre GTX era and come back to them .
All the "small frame" Garrett GT BB turbos use the same sized center section and bearing pack from the smallest GT2554R to the largest GT3582R .
All the turbines in this range ie TB25/GT28/GT30/GT35 are virtually interchangeable - specifically some differ to suit the axial length of the comp wheel and from memory the largest use a slightly larger diameter section the comp slides over .
The bearing housings are the same except they are machined to suit the major diameter of the comp wheel because it sits down in it .
The whole range of comp housings can fit the same bearing housings because the smallest fits directly with a circlip and the larger ones have adapter rings to adapt T series housings to the front of the bearing housing .
The GT3582R is a factory Garrett Bitzer because neither of its wheels are a close match to the housings Garrett supply for these turbos .
From what I can tell the T3 flanged turbine housings Garrett intends us to use are machined out GT30 castings so take one high temp spec GT30 T housing and bore it out to 68mm rather than 60mm and profile to suit the GT35 turbine .
Off the top of my head GT35 based diesel turbos were originally larger frame plain bearing units with bigger diameter shafts and bearings . They had 71mm/76mm/82mm compressor options and the better ones had GT40 series compressor housings .
As we know Garrett uses the 0.70 A/R T04S comp housings on their BB small frame GT3582R and I think its a bit lacking and would have been a marketing/bean counters decision rather than an engineers one .
I don't think the compressor maps for these units ever looked brilliant , the islands aren't exactly wide which I think tells us that the 82mm GT40 compressor is a bit big for that S housing .
Now Garrett use the 56 trim comp in these turbos but there are other smaller trim versions of this compressor family , 48/50/52/54/56 trims I found details of . HKS use the 50T version of this wheel in their spec GT3082R where Garrett's horror has the 56T in it .
To get a bit of an idea what the smaller trim wheels maps look like search for the GT4082 comp map , much wider ranging thing admittedly in a GT40 comp housing thats vaguely similar outline to a T04S .
If you go digging you will find that the earliest origins of these turbos was a special HKS had Garrett make and was called GT3240 . It's basically a GT35 turbine cropped back to GT32 like dimensions in 84 T and has the 54T version of the 82mm GT40 compressor . I believe HKS even does kits to fit these turbos onto 4G63's .
So rounding up I think Garrett went too big in the wheels with GT3582R's and was attempting to keep the unit reasonably compact for packaging reasons by using slightly inappropriate housings .
Move forward to the GTX compressor era . These compressor wheels for a given size move a bit more air than the GT series wheels they replaced do but how much can you gain if you use the same sized compressor housing .
The GTX3071R has moved up to a larger A/R size in the T04E comp housing family (0.50 to 0.60 A/R) and now has the 4 inch inlet port shrouded inlet boss . This is a logical move since the 71mm X comp has got closer to the airflow rates that a std GT3076R has and they work well in their native comp housings .
The GTX 76R and 82R units have gone nowhere with comp housings though the 82 one now has the port shrouded inlet standard .
As FullRace Geoff mentioned other mobs such as FP went to larger comp housings when they fitted higher capacity comp wheels and they wouldn't go to the trouble and expense for no reason .
As I said ATP appear to be using a smaller E family housing on their Evo 4-9 GT3582R kit and it remains to be seen how well it will work in the real world .
Actually Garrett supplied GT3582Rs to Ford here in Australia with the large 1.06 A/R IW turbine housing on one end and a 0.50 A/R T04E housing on the other . They were used on a 4L inline six in a low (4-6 lb) boost application .
ATP may be thinking along the same lines as the large ratio turbine housing and getting power from low restriction and twin scrolls .
With the later Typhoon version of that Ford XR6 Turbo Garrett supplied a hybrid GT3576R meaning the GT35 turbine and the 76mm compressor from the GT3076R , I'm not sure which comp housing they use - possibly the same 0.50 A/R E one .
Time and testing will tell the real story , I tend to think that biggish wheels in small/med trims and TS is where strong torque turbos are . Garrett seems to go the opposite way with modest sized wheels in big trims and single scroll turbine housings , I think they do this for packaging and cost reasons .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
Feb 9, 2011, 10:59 PM
#66
As I said ATP appear to be using a smaller E family housing on their Evo 4-9 GT3582R kit and it remains to be seen how well it will work in the real world .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
I just can't help feeling that the aftermarket section at Garrett is using us as test mules for wheels that may one day turn up in big dollar huge volume OE contract turbos . They don't have to guarantee a result to the generic aftermarket do they ?
A .
As for your last couple sentences, I would substitue Garrett with BW (with EFR)
I don't think they have ball bearing or titanium aluminide turbine wheels in any OEM applicaiton. But anyways, that's another topic. From a business standpoint, it would/could make sense for any of the OE turbo suppliers (Garrett, BW, MHI, IHI) to play around in the aftermarket first. Lower risk right?
Feb 10, 2011, 02:52 PM
#72
I think your close on the 450 AWHP mark on 91 since i think this thing can hit 28 psi safely with that fuel, the 550 on E85 seems very conservative though if your talking about a dynojet.
I expect with full bolt on's.....
400-420 on 91 oct easily on a MD 28PSI
around 450 with 91 oct on a DJ 28 PSI
550 on E85 MD 35 PSI
600+ on E85 DJ 35 PSI
Over 600 easily on a MD pushing 36-40 PSI
I think the GTX3076R will show the most promise, the results of FFTECS Dyno results with the GTX3582R, will confirm it though.
I expect with full bolt on's.....
400-420 on 91 oct easily on a MD 28PSI
around 450 with 91 oct on a DJ 28 PSI
550 on E85 MD 35 PSI
600+ on E85 DJ 35 PSI
Over 600 easily on a MD pushing 36-40 PSI
I think the GTX3076R will show the most promise, the results of FFTECS Dyno results with the GTX3582R, will confirm it though.
Last edited by ct9asilver; Feb 10, 2011 at 02:55 PM.
Feb 10, 2011, 07:11 PM
#73
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This is good in appearance and theory but lets see the numbers before we conclude that this BadBoy is a good alternative. Also I am very interested in the ball park figure this turbo option goes for, any pricing as yet???
