Edit: Best place to buy Kelford 272's ??
Edit: Best place to buy Kelford 272's ??
lol, ok, ok, Im pretty decided to go with the fords now. This is based on total price, ease of install, and since I am not going over 7.5k RPM, I am not replacing springs or retainers. I know S2's are probably the best to go for, but I'm on a slight budget so the kelfers seem to be the best fit.
SO, if any of you would care to share your (positive) experiences and the prices you've paid/got quoted, I will jizz.
SO, if any of you would care to share your (positive) experiences and the prices you've paid/got quoted, I will jizz.
lol, ok, ok, Im pretty decided to go with the fords now. This is based on total price, ease of install, and since I am not going over 7.5k RPM, I am not replacing springs or retainers. I know S2's are probably the best to go for, but I'm on a slight budget so the kelfers seem to be the best fit.
SO, if any of you would care to share your (positive) experiences and the prices you've paid/got quoted, I will jizz.
SO, if any of you would care to share your (positive) experiences and the prices you've paid/got quoted, I will jizz.
Didn't we go over this in your other thread already?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...5-8-turbo.html
Just PM Chris Carey or MAPerformance on here, dude. They'll take care of you.
/thread
Last edited by golgo13; Sep 11, 2011 at 07:03 PM.
not trying to start anything but there are just a ton of other companys to get cams from that will perform just as good if not better and you will not have the trouble of getting ahold of them if something was to go wrong.
Didn't we go over this in your other thread already?
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...5-8-turbo.html
Just PM Chris Carey or MAPerformance on here, dude. They'll take care of you.
/thread
https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...5-8-turbo.html
Just PM Chris Carey or MAPerformance on here, dude. They'll take care of you.
/thread
my goals are to reach 400 who and tq, and pretty sure I want to push my MR beyond that. Im thinking these are the best to suit my needs. Although, I'm looking into the fp4rs lol
Last edited by prowakeskater; Sep 11, 2011 at 07:45 PM.
I find it interesting that you have a whp goal, but are not willing to do it right.
At that power level, upgrading your valvetrain is highly recommended. Spend the cash and do it right. Not to mention, your going to be in there anyway when you install the cams.
At that power level, upgrading your valvetrain is highly recommended. Spend the cash and do it right. Not to mention, your going to be in there anyway when you install the cams.
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i have to agree upgrade valve train while your at it get a nice set of spring and retainers then some fp 4rs LOL 400whp is a easy goal to get to dont forget if your using stocker turbo it will be difficult as it runs out of steam before then unless using e85 or something like that so a turbo upgrade is def in your future as well hence the upgrading of the valvetrain 
i have to agree upgrade valve train while your at it get a nice set of spring and retainers then some fp 4rs LOL 400whp is a easy goal to get to dont forget if your using stocker turbo it will be difficult as it runs out of steam before then unless using e85 or something like that so a turbo upgrade is def in your future as well hence the upgrading of the valvetrain
I got this from a thread comparing kelfords to s2's. His logic is sound :
To me the high performance spring thing is much like the head stud thing. when are they really needed? heres my take on them backed by extensive 4g63 experience.
First note. stock 4g63 springs are quite good. years ago when many dsm guys were running AFC for fuel control there were many many reports of accidental over revs on miss shifts. the AFC has peak hold RPM function so this data was readily available. there were countless over revs reported in the 9500-10,500 with out hurting the engine. most all of these reports had cams of some sort on stock springs
second note. EVO springs are awesome. they are behive design. an improvement over earlier designs DSM spring. so over rev is at least as good as DSM spring. then there is second great feature of evo spring. The retainer is made of aluminum and quite thick. at full lift the retainer almost touches the guide seal. I dont remember how close but really close. when I first saw this I thought wow thats brilliant. even if valve tries to fly off cam lobe it it limited to a few though travel and is stopped by the guide seal. much like that cushion at the top of your shock body. this nifty feature isnt gonna stop damage from nastly high over rev but it certainly extends over rev by another 500-1000 rpm over dsm springs.
last important note. turbo cams are not anything near as radical as N/A cams. the profiles are easy for valve to follow. high duration cams like 272, 280 have lobes that are smother and easier to follow than stock cams. cams with very fast ramp rates are the ones that need a spring rate increase. for turbo cars this is the upper end of scale only.
I have been running stock eight springs in my yellow car for years with crower 280 cams. there is no evidence of valve float. pulls hard to 8000 (2.3) and regularly blows past my 8300rpm rev limit. has hit 9000+ many many many times.
Those who say springs are needed with all upgraded cams must be coming from a N/A back round. there really isnt much knowledge or experience behind the statement.
last. what happens when you have more spring tension?
cams are harder to turn = less HP=higher oil temps= more failed oil pumps form the belt being harder to turn putting too much side load on oil pump gear=premature main bearing wear as belts pulls crank toward head.
First note. stock 4g63 springs are quite good. years ago when many dsm guys were running AFC for fuel control there were many many reports of accidental over revs on miss shifts. the AFC has peak hold RPM function so this data was readily available. there were countless over revs reported in the 9500-10,500 with out hurting the engine. most all of these reports had cams of some sort on stock springs
second note. EVO springs are awesome. they are behive design. an improvement over earlier designs DSM spring. so over rev is at least as good as DSM spring. then there is second great feature of evo spring. The retainer is made of aluminum and quite thick. at full lift the retainer almost touches the guide seal. I dont remember how close but really close. when I first saw this I thought wow thats brilliant. even if valve tries to fly off cam lobe it it limited to a few though travel and is stopped by the guide seal. much like that cushion at the top of your shock body. this nifty feature isnt gonna stop damage from nastly high over rev but it certainly extends over rev by another 500-1000 rpm over dsm springs.
last important note. turbo cams are not anything near as radical as N/A cams. the profiles are easy for valve to follow. high duration cams like 272, 280 have lobes that are smother and easier to follow than stock cams. cams with very fast ramp rates are the ones that need a spring rate increase. for turbo cars this is the upper end of scale only.
I have been running stock eight springs in my yellow car for years with crower 280 cams. there is no evidence of valve float. pulls hard to 8000 (2.3) and regularly blows past my 8300rpm rev limit. has hit 9000+ many many many times.
Those who say springs are needed with all upgraded cams must be coming from a N/A back round. there really isnt much knowledge or experience behind the statement.
last. what happens when you have more spring tension?
cams are harder to turn = less HP=higher oil temps= more failed oil pumps form the belt being harder to turn putting too much side load on oil pump gear=premature main bearing wear as belts pulls crank toward head.
soo, can anyone chime in on what they paid for their kelfords or fp4r's?
It's not a power issue brochacho, it's an issue of the camshaft lift and duration in this case.
Stop being lazy and do some more reading.
If you want to run big boy camshafts and not float a valve, you will probably want to upgrade your valve train. If you don't want to do it right, get something smaller like Kelford 264s (TX264 The ULTIMATE EVO Cam for engines from 350-500HP)
The first thing you should think of when buying valve springs is your future goals in terms of peak horsepower and max redline desired.
Next you should determine which cams will get you to the power level that you require. Now this is the time when you start to consider which valve spring you should purchase. One of the first things is determining the highest lift point of the cams that you'll be running. You can get this info by searching online, emailing or phoning the company that makes the cam or which the cam card that comes with the purchase of new cams.
After you figure out the max lift, it's time to find out what the desired install valve spring height that the valve spring manufacture recommends for their valvespring. It's the same to find this info as the cams. Either search online, email/phone the company or most valvesprings manufactures will have a card or sheet that comes with the valvesprings when purchased. Now it's a safe bet that most of the reputable companies will have the same valve spring install height as the application your looking for.
Stop being a lazy lego builder and do it right.
Stop being lazy and do some more reading.
If you want to run big boy camshafts and not float a valve, you will probably want to upgrade your valve train. If you don't want to do it right, get something smaller like Kelford 264s (TX264 The ULTIMATE EVO Cam for engines from 350-500HP)
The first thing you should think of when buying valve springs is your future goals in terms of peak horsepower and max redline desired.
Next you should determine which cams will get you to the power level that you require. Now this is the time when you start to consider which valve spring you should purchase. One of the first things is determining the highest lift point of the cams that you'll be running. You can get this info by searching online, emailing or phoning the company that makes the cam or which the cam card that comes with the purchase of new cams.
After you figure out the max lift, it's time to find out what the desired install valve spring height that the valve spring manufacture recommends for their valvespring. It's the same to find this info as the cams. Either search online, email/phone the company or most valvesprings manufactures will have a card or sheet that comes with the valvesprings when purchased. Now it's a safe bet that most of the reputable companies will have the same valve spring install height as the application your looking for.
Stop being a lazy lego builder and do it right.
Last edited by golgo13; Sep 12, 2011 at 04:03 PM.
I love(d) legos...
but that quote came from a thread discussing the need for cams for the 272's. The more I read about them, the more I read about people being fine without them.
but that quote came from a thread discussing the need for cams for the 272's. The more I read about them, the more I read about people being fine without them.
Last edited by prowakeskater; Sep 12, 2011 at 05:20 PM.
94awd is a very knowledgable dsm engine builder. You can trust his advice, but again it is just advice.
dont quote me, but I am pretty sure that MAP DOES NOT sell kelfords. I remember seeing somewhere as well as speaking with Adam, they do not stock kelfords. I personally have the S2s on a stock 8 turbo and they are amazing.
take some of the other advice as well and look at other cams. the kelfords are great cams, and after speaking with many "experts" on the matter, valvetrain is not "required".
Yes, if you limit your max rev, and yes, if you NEVER go above said limit (including miss shifting etc) you could POTENTIALLY be fine.
After much research and discussion, I decided to go springs retainers and seats. If you shooting for a specific whp goal, you are obviously going to continue to mod your car to reach that goal -- aka more money.
stop being cheap, and do the full valvetrain. as it has been said, it has more to do with lift. either do the valvetrain right the first time, or stick with S1s or 264s and be happy with less power. unless your car is a dyno queen, who really cares about your dyno sheet top numbers? its your car, if it puts a smile on your face when you drive it, its all that matters.
forgive the poor analogy, but its like people putting up big weight at the gym and then looking around to see whose watching them. Unless your a competitive body builder, guess what? No one else cares.
dont quote me, but I am pretty sure that MAP DOES NOT sell kelfords. I remember seeing somewhere as well as speaking with Adam, they do not stock kelfords. I personally have the S2s on a stock 8 turbo and they are amazing.
take some of the other advice as well and look at other cams. the kelfords are great cams, and after speaking with many "experts" on the matter, valvetrain is not "required".
Yes, if you limit your max rev, and yes, if you NEVER go above said limit (including miss shifting etc) you could POTENTIALLY be fine.
After much research and discussion, I decided to go springs retainers and seats. If you shooting for a specific whp goal, you are obviously going to continue to mod your car to reach that goal -- aka more money.
stop being cheap, and do the full valvetrain. as it has been said, it has more to do with lift. either do the valvetrain right the first time, or stick with S1s or 264s and be happy with less power. unless your car is a dyno queen, who really cares about your dyno sheet top numbers? its your car, if it puts a smile on your face when you drive it, its all that matters.
forgive the poor analogy, but its like people putting up big weight at the gym and then looking around to see whose watching them. Unless your a competitive body builder, guess what? No one else cares.
Maperformance sells them. Call Adam and he will hook you up. If he doesn't then fly to his house and make him. To not stock them would be foolish. Kelford 272 cams are great. You buy now.