Toxic Fab ingenious stepped FF manifold with BILLET collector!
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Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 28
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From: Woodstock, IL
I also like having a clean engine bay, I am starting with a stock evo 8 so I have lots of work to do, lol.
I am just curious as to all of the real benefits, I am sure they will chime in with what the expectations are.
I am just curious as to all of the real benefits, I am sure they will chime in with what the expectations are.
I started with a stock EVO 9... its a long endless road to get it looking clean...
Love looking back at the stages my engine bay has gone through. I just wish I took more pictures during the years. Would have made a cool time lapse
I'm all in for the others expectations and results too. The stepped header has me very curious whether it will work wonders. Time will tell
Love looking back at the stages my engine bay has gone through. I just wish I took more pictures during the years. Would have made a cool time lapse
I'm all in for the others expectations and results too. The stepped header has me very curious whether it will work wonders. Time will tell
Last edited by foxbear2277; Nov 30, 2013 at 08:46 AM.
The real benifits are plain as day everyone. Stainless gets weaker when welded, even when welded properly. The HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) along the weld is prone to cracking and corrsion in stainless. Now on a runner weld, that's not a big issue. However with a cut and welded merge collector with a wastegate port, this part has a lot of welding and a lot of heat to into it. So before it's ever even seen under hood temps and EGT's, it's integrity has already been compromised. With that being said, it can crack. This in no way was built do to manifolds failing. But sense the very start of toxicfab, my goal was to stand out from the rest, and push the limit of quality fabrication. Just because the Evo community is not as big on high dollar parts as it once was, doesn't mean for a second I'm going to stop pushing this envolope every day.
So besides the obvious strength bennifits, flow and design is a huge part of it. Where metal fabrication has limits with wastegate integration as well as design, just like new billet compressor wheels showing huge power gains over old heavy cast products... The capability of a 5 axis CNC is truly endless and I will take advantage of this where I can.
On too price.. Of course it's not cheap. Look at it. It's a collector that came from a solid block of stainless billet and was machined to perfection. So of course it's not for everyone, nor can everyone afford it. But it is now a option that many have already jumped on and ordered. My goal is to offer a endless amount of options to my customers with quality in mind and nothing less.
Collin
So besides the obvious strength bennifits, flow and design is a huge part of it. Where metal fabrication has limits with wastegate integration as well as design, just like new billet compressor wheels showing huge power gains over old heavy cast products... The capability of a 5 axis CNC is truly endless and I will take advantage of this where I can.
On too price.. Of course it's not cheap. Look at it. It's a collector that came from a solid block of stainless billet and was machined to perfection. So of course it's not for everyone, nor can everyone afford it. But it is now a option that many have already jumped on and ordered. My goal is to offer a endless amount of options to my customers with quality in mind and nothing less.
Collin
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From: Tri-Cities, WA // Portland, OR
I would expect the smaller diameter to be at the collector to increase exhaust gas velocity, but since the smaller diameter at the exhaust port, I think it was used to provide clearance for fabrication. Whatever the reason though, its an awesome looking product as usual.
Because there are absolutely no quality twinscroll turbine housings for the 3586. Im running a ts set up right now. The manifold is a joke and the turbine housing reccomended (atp) is even a bigger joke. Tial housing is 10 times better in my opinion. Also hoping that the stepped runners will make up the difference ts made. Its really unknown territory on a Evo. Cant wait to test it out!
Step headers:
http://www.centuryperformance.com/fo...ing-and-Length
As the exiting exhaust gases travel through the headers they are expanding until they cool enough to where expansion stops. The longer you can keep the exhaust velocity up, the better the scavenging of the cylinders, and the more power and torque the engine can make.
By starting with a slightly smaller tube at the cylinder head flange. This step is necessary to ensure the exhaust velocity stays**UP*. As the gases expand, they get to the next size, or the*"second*"step. This allows for a contained (managed) control of the expansion of the spent gases while still keeping an efficient exhaust velocity
This gradual increase in size provides the maximum balance of exhaust velocity and volume.
Step headers:
http://www.centuryperformance.com/fo...ing-and-Length
As the exiting exhaust gases travel through the headers they are expanding until they cool enough to where expansion stops. The longer you can keep the exhaust velocity up, the better the scavenging of the cylinders, and the more power and torque the engine can make.
By starting with a slightly smaller tube at the cylinder head flange. This step is necessary to ensure the exhaust velocity stays**UP*. As the gases expand, they get to the next size, or the*"second*"step. This allows for a contained (managed) control of the expansion of the spent gases while still keeping an efficient exhaust velocity
This gradual increase in size provides the maximum balance of exhaust velocity and volume.
Last edited by foxbear2277; Dec 1, 2013 at 01:53 PM.
I have several cars that will be doing testing (Chris's being one of them) and will be sharing results from all of them.
As you mentioned it does make sense to drop down runner size to build velocity, but commonly overlooked is the merge collector being only 3/4" bigger ID then the head flange ports. So it's the biggest step down of them all. But adding steps in the runner will help let expanding exhaust gas build velocity before entering the collector, where is will step back down at the outlet flange. This should help build overall exhaust velocity in reading spool and top end power. So this way you can almost look at it as a tuned expansion chamber. This is all Theroy based off a lot of research and exhaust gas flow Theroy. It's been proven in plenty of other applications, so I wanted to apply this to the Evo.
Collin
MrFred, the stepped "up" runners have been used in formula 1 for over a decade and in both turbo and NA applications have proven big gains. Now this was not built for clearances in anyways although it does help with head flange bolt clearance.
I have several cars that will be doing testing (Chris's being one of them) and will be sharing results from all of them.
As you mentioned it does make sense to drop down runner size to build velocity, but commonly overlooked is the merge collector being only 3/4" bigger ID then the head flange ports. So it's the biggest step down of them all. But adding steps in the runner will help let expanding exhaust gas build velocity before entering the collector, where is will step back down at the outlet flange. This should help build overall exhaust velocity in reading spool and top end power. So this way you can almost look at it as a tuned expansion chamber. This is all Theroy based off a lot of research and exhaust gas flow Theroy. It's been proven in plenty of other applications, so I wanted to apply this to the Evo.
Collin
I have several cars that will be doing testing (Chris's being one of them) and will be sharing results from all of them.
As you mentioned it does make sense to drop down runner size to build velocity, but commonly overlooked is the merge collector being only 3/4" bigger ID then the head flange ports. So it's the biggest step down of them all. But adding steps in the runner will help let expanding exhaust gas build velocity before entering the collector, where is will step back down at the outlet flange. This should help build overall exhaust velocity in reading spool and top end power. So this way you can almost look at it as a tuned expansion chamber. This is all Theroy based off a lot of research and exhaust gas flow Theroy. It's been proven in plenty of other applications, so I wanted to apply this to the Evo.
Collin
So did toxic fab actually design this collector using CADD software themselves? Or someone else?
Did Toxic fab actually use their own milling machine to make this collector, or someone else?
Did Toxic fab actually use their own milling machine to make this collector, or someone else?
Frontline afaik that's who he referenced in the Facebook statuses.
Step up realy sounds like you need the max turbine efficiency in mind. So least amount of back pressure and emap:map ratio low
Step up realy sounds like you need the max turbine efficiency in mind. So least amount of back pressure and emap:map ratio low
Last edited by 211Ratsbud; Dec 3, 2013 at 05:50 PM.
Awesome work. Now do a CNC divided collector with divided wastegate that will work with a Vband wastegate.
As for the stepped runners, it doesn't look like the step happens at the same distance on each runner? I've got an IRL header with stepped runners and that's what I noticed about it the most. The step happens at the same length along the runner. The runner length after the step is where the lengths vary. Makes sense for resonance tuning.
Just something to consider, Columbia River bending is now doing 304ss 11 gauge mandrel bends. They have a 1.5"ID and 1.75" ID on a 3" bend radius, 180* bends. Far better for pressure loss and a better match to the 4G63 than you get with pipe elbows. If you can fit the larger bend radius, it should be a better solution.
As for the stepped runners, it doesn't look like the step happens at the same distance on each runner? I've got an IRL header with stepped runners and that's what I noticed about it the most. The step happens at the same length along the runner. The runner length after the step is where the lengths vary. Makes sense for resonance tuning.
Just something to consider, Columbia River bending is now doing 304ss 11 gauge mandrel bends. They have a 1.5"ID and 1.75" ID on a 3" bend radius, 180* bends. Far better for pressure loss and a better match to the 4G63 than you get with pipe elbows. If you can fit the larger bend radius, it should be a better solution.