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Please help!! Timing belt teeth shreding off as I turn it to TDC

 
Old Apr 11, 2019, 05:27 PM
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Please help!! Timing belt teeth shreding off as I turn it to TDC

So long story short my car was making some new vibrations and I knew there was something off with the balance shaft/timing belt. Sure enough, the was way less tension than there should be and it was damn near flapping. As I hand turn the crank I notice that there are 3 teeth missing with more about to tear off. Obviously I stop driving and order new everything for an early timing belt job (assuming failed tensioner - not buying gates **** ever again).

Fast forward a week to today and I'm taking the parts apart to look at the timing components. I get the timing cover off and hand rotate the crank some more to check timing and that no teeth skipped and thankfully the crank and camshafts are timing correctly - so good there. BUT the balance shaft seems to be off time - I can't get the engine at TDC with the balance shaft in time no matter how many times I turn the crank, so I'm assuming that the balance shaft timing got messed up with the missing teeth - hence the vibrations.

Here is were things turn bad. I decide to do one last turn to TDC and then was going to take the belt off, and sure enough the teeth that were half off start shredding off and rotating the crank is not rotating the camshafts any longer. (I only rotated the crank a tooth or two before I stopped). Pretty scary to think that the timing belt was a few trips around the crank before catastrophe.

So now I have no idea what to do to get the belt off and the engine correctly timed and I'm scared to death of hitting the valves with the pistons as I rotate things. The cams are half off from TDC. I could probably rotate the crankshaft counterclockwise and the teeth will grab but I'm not sure if that's a bad idea. I could try to rotate the camshafts from the cam bolts and pull the timing belt in time, but again I'm not sure if that's a bad idea.

I just don't know what to do to get the engine timed without contacting the pistons and valves. What should I do? I'll upload a few pictures shortly
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Old Apr 11, 2019, 06:12 PM
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i could answer better if i had a picture of everything... but no worries.

if you have only turned a little bit past .. then you are fine.

just get the crank back to tdc and then get the cams back to their marks and then lock them in (do you have a cam locking tool)?
tuning the crank counter clock wise a few degrees is not that big a deal... cause it sounds like your tensioner is shot anyway.

there are some good vidoes online on how to set up the timing.
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Old Apr 11, 2019, 06:22 PM
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Image is below, notice the mashed up teeth.

My worry is if I keep trying to rotate the crank clockwise it won't catch and will get further and further off. I could back the crank off a bit and get the teeth unjammed and rotate the oil pump pulley and crank pulley at the same time until the teeth catch on the crank pulley. Any reason not to do that?

Not cam locker but I've done timing before without one so didn't think I needed it. I could rent one of those universal plastic ones but I'm pretty sure they're crap anyway.




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Old Apr 11, 2019, 07:15 PM
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Remove your spark plugs and put a long screwdriver down #1 and #2 cylinders. Which has piston lower?
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Old Apr 11, 2019, 07:28 PM
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If both hold long screwdriver in same position, leave crank there because it is slightly below midpoint and has enough valve clearance where you can spin cams without hitting valves to pistons. Then we need to figure out the crank position to set your timing. If you didn't skip and teeth, I would mark timing belt to each timing sprocket(use different color for crank so you know where to start). Then pull off timing belt (cam gears will spin a bit to rest in certain position). Transfer markings on belt to new belt (with crank marking being different color). Then line up new belt in same position and make sure to use new tensioner.
There are other ways to fix this, so do what you are comfortable with.
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Old Apr 11, 2019, 07:31 PM
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Post your screwdriver positions in #1 & #2 and I'll help as best I can in between jury duty breaks.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 07:20 AM
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So just to make sure, you suggesting more or less leaving the crank and cams in the same position and getting the new belt on? I think that makes sense. I may take it off and redo timing once properly at TDC but this method would get my there safely. I'll have to post the photos tomorrow afternoon when I'm working on it again.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 07:26 AM
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That depends on what position you are at now. If it is close to TDC, we will reset timing at TDC. I found that marking the old belt and sprockets/gears make it soooo much easier to install new belt.

Originally Posted by CeliOnce View Post
So just to make sure, you suggesting more or less leaving the crank and cams in the same position and getting the new belt on? I think that makes sense. I may take it off and redo timing once properly at TDC but this method would get my there safely. I'll have to post the photos tomorrow afternoon when I'm working on it again.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 07:39 AM
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you could just remove the rockers, then spin at your hearts content because you wont make valve contact.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 10:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Biggiesacks View Post
you could just remove the rockers, then spin at your hearts content because you wont make valve contact.
Yes, but then you will need to pull cams off to reinstall. I'm always worried about damaging rockers or lifter nipples. Or misalign rockers to cam lobs.
If you go this route, set crank to TDC amd back it 90 to keep pistons below 1/2 way until you are ready to set timing belt. Marking old and new belts will save you frustration because timing belt is alway off by 1/2 tooth where it can go either way.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 01:24 PM
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why would you have to pull the cams?
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 02:01 PM
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I would lock the cams and re-align the timing marks. Put on a new belt and tensioner and check timing marks again. If they are all where they are supposed to be then it should be good to go.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 02:23 PM
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I think you are worrying too much about piston to valve contact while reinstalling the new timing belt. If you get to the point that the valves contact the pistons because they are really that out of time, your crank gear would stop turning and you can just spin it the opposite way. It's not easy to bend a valve with the engine off unless you are reefing on the crank with a breaker bar. If you're worried, spin the crank until each piston is in the center of each cylinder and adjust timing from there on the cam gears. Once you are done bring #1 back up to TDC to match the cam gears.

As mentioned earlier, lock your cam gears in place at the timing marks, put the crank in TDC as well. Find the correct balance shaft phase off the oil pump gear using the long screw driver method (cycles every 3 rotations of the oil pump gear.)

Make sure you have proper belt tension on the balance shaft belt and timing belt.
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 02:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Pal215 View Post
I think you are worrying too much about piston to valve contact while reinstalling the new timing belt. If you get to the point that the valves contact the pistons because they are really that out of time, your crank gear would stop turning and you can just spin it the opposite way. It's not easy to bend a valve with the engine off unless you are reefing on the crank with a breaker bar.
Okay awesome, that's basically what I wanted to hear and kind of my assumption but I wanted to be safe. Gonna just go put the pistons and half like you and 2006EvoIXer suggest and then rotate the cams accordingly.

Thanks a ton for the help
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Old Apr 12, 2019, 05:03 PM
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Got the belt off with no drama. Has anyone ever heard of the tensioner pivot arm seizing?? I can't get it off and it doesn't rotate. Maybe this was my issue
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