Why not RL Heavy Shock Proof in the TC?
Apr 17, 2004, 05:13 PM
#16
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Ok, I change my TCase oil at 500 miles to shock proof (mine was red in color). When I took out my old stocl oil at 500 miles I did have so metal build up on the drain plug.
I will just for up guys right now go out and change the Transfer case oil again. I will let you know what I find. The time is now 1:46 Hawaii standard time.
I will just for up guys right now go out and change the Transfer case oil again. I will let you know what I find. The time is now 1:46 Hawaii standard time.
Apr 17, 2004, 05:26 PM
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Back all ready! I jack up the car use my 24mm 1/2 drive socket and opened her up. SWEEEEET!!!!!!!!!! very nice still red in color shockproof coming out. ( I forgot to say I have 3300 miles on the car now. So about 2800 on the shock proof.) Now it did have the normal type of grayish goo on the magnet but not like the 1st time I change out the gearoil in it at 500 miles! So now I will go back out and put some new oil in her. I hope this helped so people out.
Apr 17, 2004, 07:06 PM
#18
So anyone know what is the recommended or best fluid for manual transaxle, TC, and rear differential ?? I'm planning to change since the car is at 10K and not sure what to use.
Apr 17, 2004, 07:10 PM
#19
Originally posted by SILVER SURFER
Shahul,
BTW I recently put the heavy shock proof in the TC, and just before getting on the dyno for my cam gear test I changed the motor oil. I usually run Red line 10-30 but the shop only had 20-50, for road racing I thought well maybe I am better off with the 20-50 so... Anyway, on the dyno after changing these fluids I measured a good 5 to 7WHP drop! I suspect the motor oil was the bigger factor, Red line claims that for each oil weight grade you go up or down you can gain or loose 1 to 2 percent engine power. I basically went from a 30 weight to a 50 weight and there was a good 2% power loss, so I guess they weren't kidding about that.
Another important note, with the 20-50 oil I noticed significantly more valve lifter noise (loud ticking). I am switching to 10-40 for the summer and 10-30 in the winter, I am in TX so up north I would go even thinner.
Ferb, you seem to be our resident oil expert, any thoughts or advice?
Shahul,
BTW I recently put the heavy shock proof in the TC, and just before getting on the dyno for my cam gear test I changed the motor oil. I usually run Red line 10-30 but the shop only had 20-50, for road racing I thought well maybe I am better off with the 20-50 so... Anyway, on the dyno after changing these fluids I measured a good 5 to 7WHP drop! I suspect the motor oil was the bigger factor, Red line claims that for each oil weight grade you go up or down you can gain or loose 1 to 2 percent engine power. I basically went from a 30 weight to a 50 weight and there was a good 2% power loss, so I guess they weren't kidding about that.
Another important note, with the 20-50 oil I noticed significantly more valve lifter noise (loud ticking). I am switching to 10-40 for the summer and 10-30 in the winter, I am in TX so up north I would go even thinner.
Ferb, you seem to be our resident oil expert, any thoughts or advice?
Apr 17, 2004, 09:33 PM
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Originally posted by SILVER SURFER
Yes, but was that there relatively thin 75-90 or there shock proof oils that seem to offer far better protection?
The OEM 90 weight oil is definiately heavier than the Red line 75-90, so it should offer greater shock protection compared to the RL 75-90, but the shock proof looks as though it would be far supperior to the OEM lube.
There have already been faulty/damaged transfer cases with the OEM fluid so...
It seems that a heavier weight oil will certainly improve reliability, but to suggest there is one particular magic fluid that will suddenly make your TC bulet proof seems highly unlikely.
Yes, but was that there relatively thin 75-90 or there shock proof oils that seem to offer far better protection?
The OEM 90 weight oil is definiately heavier than the Red line 75-90, so it should offer greater shock protection compared to the RL 75-90, but the shock proof looks as though it would be far supperior to the OEM lube.
There have already been faulty/damaged transfer cases with the OEM fluid so...
It seems that a heavier weight oil will certainly improve reliability, but to suggest there is one particular magic fluid that will suddenly make your TC bulet proof seems highly unlikely.
Thanks for the info.
Btw, anyone that's running the shockproof in the transfer case; are you using the friction modifier?
Apr 17, 2004, 09:39 PM
#21
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So anyone know what is the recommended or best fluid for manual transaxle, TC, and rear differential
Thats kind of what we are trying to figure out here, there are a few different opinions, so...Personally I am leaning towards the Heavy shock proof for the TC and rear diff. But I am going to wait until I get a response from Red Line, just to make sure there are no consequences from using this lube that I am unaware of.
For the tranny, I have ben using MT90, I found it worked better than what some have claimed. But it might be just a little too slippery for the syncro engagement. I may try this BG syncro, but I may also try MT90 with some MTL as iodine23 mentioned in another thread.
10W-40??? Hmm I always thought it was for trucks.
15-20 years ago 10-40 was very common for passenger cars. If you don't drive your car extremely hard (like road racing) and you don't live where the average summer temps can be over 100 degrees, then 10-30 in the summer and 5-30 or even 0-30 in the winter is probably best. Since I live in TX and like to drive on road courses frequently, I will use 10-40 in the summer and 10-30 in the winter.Here is what Redline recomends with there oils.
Red Line 10W40:
Best choice for engines that typically run high oil temperature. Best choice for engines in daily drivers operated in very hot weather on a regular basis. Best choice for medium and heavy duty gasoline engines in trucks. Best choice for high-performance engines that see street as well as frequent racetrack duty. Thicker oil film at operating temperature than a petro-based 20W-50.
Red Line 10W30:
Best all-weather viscosity grade for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks that are driven on the street on a daily basis. Reduces turbo lag and provides more power and economy while providing thicker bearing oil films at operating temperature than a petroleum 10W-40. Best all-round, synthetic oil for stock or slightly modified engines in high- performance cars that are street-driven. Best choice to replace a 5W-30 or 10W-30, petroleum-based or other-brand synthetic oil if maximum durability is preferred. Acceptable for engines that are occasionally operated in extreme cold weather.
Red Line 5W30:
Provides the quickest starts and fastest oil pressure rise. Will reduce turbo lag and provides more power and best economy in an engine in good condition. Replacement for OE factory-fill oils in passenger cars and most light trucks. Thicker oil film at operating temperature than a petroleum 10W-40. Best choice for engines operated in extreme cold weather.
Best choice for engines that typically run high oil temperature. Best choice for engines in daily drivers operated in very hot weather on a regular basis. Best choice for medium and heavy duty gasoline engines in trucks. Best choice for high-performance engines that see street as well as frequent racetrack duty. Thicker oil film at operating temperature than a petro-based 20W-50.
Red Line 10W30:
Best all-weather viscosity grade for gasoline engines in cars and light trucks that are driven on the street on a daily basis. Reduces turbo lag and provides more power and economy while providing thicker bearing oil films at operating temperature than a petroleum 10W-40. Best all-round, synthetic oil for stock or slightly modified engines in high- performance cars that are street-driven. Best choice to replace a 5W-30 or 10W-30, petroleum-based or other-brand synthetic oil if maximum durability is preferred. Acceptable for engines that are occasionally operated in extreme cold weather.
Red Line 5W30:
Provides the quickest starts and fastest oil pressure rise. Will reduce turbo lag and provides more power and best economy in an engine in good condition. Replacement for OE factory-fill oils in passenger cars and most light trucks. Thicker oil film at operating temperature than a petroleum 10W-40. Best choice for engines operated in extreme cold weather.
Do you know if the valve lifter noise is normal for aftermarket cams? Should it be a concern? I have 272/272 and the ticking just started. On the other post someone mention that it could be an error in the cam installment. Should the ticking be a concern and is everyone with aftermarket cams having this? I know my honda have the ticking but it was normal.
If the car runs good, how exactly would improper cam installation increase lifter noise?
Apr 17, 2004, 09:58 PM
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Btw, anyone that's running the shockproof in the transfer case; are you using the friction modifier?
Apr 18, 2004, 11:55 AM
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Originally posted by SILVER SURFER
The friction modifiers are used for the limited slip diffs, sadly there is no limited slip diffs in our transfer cases. At least not right now, unless someone has an RS.
The friction modifiers are used for the limited slip diffs, sadly there is no limited slip diffs in our transfer cases. At least not right now, unless someone has an RS.
-shahul
Apr 18, 2004, 04:47 PM
#26
Thanks for the replies about the Redline ShockProof color. I double checked the bottles and they're the SuperLight thickness.
Those w/ the Heavy or Light versions, did it look like a suspension?
For the tranny, I'm currently running a 2 qt Penzoil synchomesh, 1 qt MT-90 combo. When I was running straight MT-90, I kept having problems getting into 2nd gear when at WOT and redline. Either it wouldn't go into gear, or it felt vague, w/ no positiveness of going into gear. Before the MT-90, I didn't have any 2nd gear problems.
My initial impressions are that it seems to shift smoother, with less of the notchiness. I haven't taken the car to the strip to fully test out the 1-2 shift, but the few times I've let 'er rip on the street, I haven't had any hesitation.
I"ll be sure to report after I go to the strip.
For the transfer case, I'm currently running Neo RHD 75-90 tranny oil. (the stuff that costs $80 a gallon). I was running Redline 75-90 prior. Can't say much about it, I guess I might find out about the durability and protectiveness if the TC blows up.
When I drained the stock fluid, it was really thick. Came out in 'glops'; seemed much heavier than straight 90 wt oil. The Neo oil seems heavier than Redline of the same weight (75-90), so hopefully it'll work well. I'll eventually put it in the rear diff when I get a chance.
Those w/ the Heavy or Light versions, did it look like a suspension?
For the tranny, I'm currently running a 2 qt Penzoil synchomesh, 1 qt MT-90 combo. When I was running straight MT-90, I kept having problems getting into 2nd gear when at WOT and redline. Either it wouldn't go into gear, or it felt vague, w/ no positiveness of going into gear. Before the MT-90, I didn't have any 2nd gear problems.
My initial impressions are that it seems to shift smoother, with less of the notchiness. I haven't taken the car to the strip to fully test out the 1-2 shift, but the few times I've let 'er rip on the street, I haven't had any hesitation.
I"ll be sure to report after I go to the strip.
For the transfer case, I'm currently running Neo RHD 75-90 tranny oil. (the stuff that costs $80 a gallon). I was running Redline 75-90 prior. Can't say much about it, I guess I might find out about the durability and protectiveness if the TC blows up.
When I drained the stock fluid, it was really thick. Came out in 'glops'; seemed much heavier than straight 90 wt oil. The Neo oil seems heavier than Redline of the same weight (75-90), so hopefully it'll work well. I'll eventually put it in the rear diff when I get a chance.
Apr 19, 2004, 07:23 PM
#27
So no final recommendations yet?
Sounds like it's 75-90 for the rear, Red Line Heavy weight Shock Proof Gear Lube for the TC and BG Syncro Shift or GM syncromesh for the manual transaxle.
Sounds like it's 75-90 for the rear, Red Line Heavy weight Shock Proof Gear Lube for the TC and BG Syncro Shift or GM syncromesh for the manual transaxle.
Apr 19, 2004, 09:22 PM
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I spoke with the Red Line tech support guy today and this is basically what he told me:
The reason they recommend the shock proof lubricants more for racing than street use is because the shock proof lubricants do not flow as well when they are really cold, especially below 30 degrees F. Most street car drivetrains do not require the amount of added protection given by the heavy shock proof, and the improved cold flow characteristics of the lighter weight oils will generally improve long term reliability/wear in most applications.
So there is a trade off that needs to be determined based on each application, usage, and enviroment. So if you live way up north and drive like a little old lady then the relatively thin 75-90 will provide greater protection and long term reliability. If your in a warm climate and drive the car hard, the the Heavy shock proof will provide far greater protection/long term reliability, especially since the TC seems to be a very high gear stress component in these cars.
So for me the heavy shock proof definiately seems to make sense. Our winters are usually very mild, but on those rare cold days I will just take extra care to be sure and let the drivtrain fully warm up before laying into it. If I lived up north and used the car as a daily driver, I would probably switch to a lighter oil when it gets really cold (light weight shock proof or the 75-90).
I also do not see any reason why you would not use it in the rear diff also, (have you priced those suckers
). The heavy shock proof has slightly less friction modifiers compared to the 75-90, so they said you would need to add about a 1/2 ounce of friction modifier in the rear diff.
The regular 75-90 has 5% friction modifier stock and the shock proof has 3% so...
As far as the tranny they claim that there are no harmful additives that will attack yellow metals, but that the shock proof lubricants have too much friction modifiers and the wrong viscosity to allow proper syncro engagement with our tranny.
Apparently the transaxle also does not see the same type of harmful high stress gear loading that the transfer case and diff sees, so you don't need shock proof in the tranny anyway. He also went on to say that the MT90 is a great tranny oil for most applications, but that the Mitsu trannys seem to work better with a slightly lower viscosity oil. He recommended mixing MT90 and MTL to get the best results, (1 qt MT90 and top off with MTL). I might try straight half/half first. Personally I have been using straight MT90 and I thought it worked pretty good in my car, so if this combo is better... Of course I live in a warm climate compared to some of you so that may explain the mileage variations
.
I will also try the BG and see what works best for me.
Oh, he also mentioned that if your cars under warranty and the dealer sees these funcky red or blue fluids in there, they may give you a hard time with warranty, so...
So there it is! From all of the reasearch I have done you will not find a group of enthusiasts anywhere that will all completely agree on one particular lubricant. To some degree they may all be correct, each type of lubricant has certain benefits in specific applications, under certain enviromental conditions and usage.
So a lubricant that works great on a road course down in TX in August may not be a good choice for getting grocerys in the middle of winter in CT.
Ya know, it's just like tires! Most lubricants (like stock) are designed to work well under a wide variety of conditions just like a good all season tire. Good in all conditions but isn't great in any particular one. In the summer at the track you better off with the Hoosiers (heavy synthetics/shock proof), going to the corner store in the dead of winter you can't beat a good snow tire (light weight synthetic).
Make sense?
The reason they recommend the shock proof lubricants more for racing than street use is because the shock proof lubricants do not flow as well when they are really cold, especially below 30 degrees F. Most street car drivetrains do not require the amount of added protection given by the heavy shock proof, and the improved cold flow characteristics of the lighter weight oils will generally improve long term reliability/wear in most applications.
So there is a trade off that needs to be determined based on each application, usage, and enviroment. So if you live way up north and drive like a little old lady then the relatively thin 75-90 will provide greater protection and long term reliability. If your in a warm climate and drive the car hard, the the Heavy shock proof will provide far greater protection/long term reliability, especially since the TC seems to be a very high gear stress component in these cars.
So for me the heavy shock proof definiately seems to make sense. Our winters are usually very mild, but on those rare cold days I will just take extra care to be sure and let the drivtrain fully warm up before laying into it. If I lived up north and used the car as a daily driver, I would probably switch to a lighter oil when it gets really cold (light weight shock proof or the 75-90).
I also do not see any reason why you would not use it in the rear diff also, (have you priced those suckers
). The heavy shock proof has slightly less friction modifiers compared to the 75-90, so they said you would need to add about a 1/2 ounce of friction modifier in the rear diff. The regular 75-90 has 5% friction modifier stock and the shock proof has 3% so...
As far as the tranny they claim that there are no harmful additives that will attack yellow metals, but that the shock proof lubricants have too much friction modifiers and the wrong viscosity to allow proper syncro engagement with our tranny.
Apparently the transaxle also does not see the same type of harmful high stress gear loading that the transfer case and diff sees, so you don't need shock proof in the tranny anyway. He also went on to say that the MT90 is a great tranny oil for most applications, but that the Mitsu trannys seem to work better with a slightly lower viscosity oil. He recommended mixing MT90 and MTL to get the best results, (1 qt MT90 and top off with MTL). I might try straight half/half first. Personally I have been using straight MT90 and I thought it worked pretty good in my car, so if this combo is better... Of course I live in a warm climate compared to some of you so that may explain the mileage variations
.I will also try the BG and see what works best for me.
Oh, he also mentioned that if your cars under warranty and the dealer sees these funcky red or blue fluids in there, they may give you a hard time with warranty, so...
So there it is! From all of the reasearch I have done you will not find a group of enthusiasts anywhere that will all completely agree on one particular lubricant. To some degree they may all be correct, each type of lubricant has certain benefits in specific applications, under certain enviromental conditions and usage.
So a lubricant that works great on a road course down in TX in August may not be a good choice for getting grocerys in the middle of winter in CT.
Ya know, it's just like tires! Most lubricants (like stock) are designed to work well under a wide variety of conditions just like a good all season tire. Good in all conditions but isn't great in any particular one. In the summer at the track you better off with the Hoosiers (heavy synthetics/shock proof), going to the corner store in the dead of winter you can't beat a good snow tire (light weight synthetic).
Make sense?
Apr 20, 2004, 09:52 AM
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Great info SS!
I currently have MT90 in my tranny and 75W90 in my diffs. Next time I think I will try one of the Shockproof oils in the xfer case and the MT90/MTL mixture in the tranny. What is your take on the LightWeight and SuperLight?
I currently have MT90 in my tranny and 75W90 in my diffs. Next time I think I will try one of the Shockproof oils in the xfer case and the MT90/MTL mixture in the tranny. What is your take on the LightWeight and SuperLight?