MANLEY prone to cracking?
Jul 13, 2017, 11:31 AM
#17
I'm not trying to call anyone's baby ugly or step on any toes. Take a step back and look at every situation and the facts.
Lets not forget that plenty of people have cracked OEM or other 100mm cranks with power,rpm,detonation or sheer force . Its 14% larger then the stock 88mm crank and deals with more leverage. Everything has its limits.
Bigger stroke is going to increase Harmonics. Here are a few things worth noting.
1) Most people change the crank and they don't add a good dampner (ATI) to help deal with this. The stock dampner is for a stock crank/engine and is over a decade old at this point. A good dampner is going to help any engine with aftermarket rods/pistons of any stroke. Its often overlooked and people want to point fingers at something else. Our engines can easily make 150-250hp a cylinder so everything needs to be looked at. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
2) There has been a tuning learning curve for most over the past decade. If you look back the information is there on timing used,afr and results. The big crank doesn't deal with being rattled like the smaller crank but anything can break. A clean dyno sheet on low smoothing tells the story for the people that know. Ever look at one on high smoothing and its still wavy. Or Jagged? Not how I want my engine to run.
3) Everyone is a tuner and does endless road logs "getting it right" on a single knock sensor with Hobbyist software. This has its draw backs if the engine isn't running good. How accurate is the software, old knock sensor, ignition system barreling down the road? How many people have tuned their stock engine bearings out tuning on their own. Professionals with the right tools and feedback are a worthwhile investment. Or the tuner that runs 35psi on pump gas and is proud of it. Thats careless or not knowing any better. I've seen countless examples
4) Hang a big heavy twin/triple disk that doesn't slip to cause even more stress on the drivetrain. Clutch technology has gotten extremely good and affordable over the years. Something has to give.
5) The RS motors car has broken a few stock cranks IIRC. Its well tuned but I'd guess between a strong twin disk and chattering the tires on a loose road course surface its transmitting the shock into the crank and drivetrain.
6) Leverage/material limits.
7) A well balanced assembly . Remember, good and cheap hardly work out. Going to a machine shop that has a great reputation is worth the money. The engine builder also should have ALL the proper tools to check that work and assemble the engine.
8) TScomp uses and builds ALOT of 100mm Manley crank engines . He's tuned/built these cars for awhile and they seem to live well. If the crank was a problem would he continue to run it?
The big crank has its limits like anything else. With good tuning and parts selection it should live a decent life at moderate levels.
FWIW. I've got a Manley billet 94mm, ATI and well balanced assembly thats living well .
These cars are very rewarding if you take the time to research,build them and tune them correctly. Attention to detail always pays off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsional_vibration
Lets not forget that plenty of people have cracked OEM or other 100mm cranks with power,rpm,detonation or sheer force . Its 14% larger then the stock 88mm crank and deals with more leverage. Everything has its limits.
Bigger stroke is going to increase Harmonics. Here are a few things worth noting.
1) Most people change the crank and they don't add a good dampner (ATI) to help deal with this. The stock dampner is for a stock crank/engine and is over a decade old at this point. A good dampner is going to help any engine with aftermarket rods/pistons of any stroke. Its often overlooked and people want to point fingers at something else. Our engines can easily make 150-250hp a cylinder so everything needs to be looked at. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
2) There has been a tuning learning curve for most over the past decade. If you look back the information is there on timing used,afr and results. The big crank doesn't deal with being rattled like the smaller crank but anything can break. A clean dyno sheet on low smoothing tells the story for the people that know. Ever look at one on high smoothing and its still wavy. Or Jagged? Not how I want my engine to run.
3) Everyone is a tuner and does endless road logs "getting it right" on a single knock sensor with Hobbyist software. This has its draw backs if the engine isn't running good. How accurate is the software, old knock sensor, ignition system barreling down the road? How many people have tuned their stock engine bearings out tuning on their own. Professionals with the right tools and feedback are a worthwhile investment. Or the tuner that runs 35psi on pump gas and is proud of it. Thats careless or not knowing any better. I've seen countless examples
4) Hang a big heavy twin/triple disk that doesn't slip to cause even more stress on the drivetrain. Clutch technology has gotten extremely good and affordable over the years. Something has to give.
5) The RS motors car has broken a few stock cranks IIRC. Its well tuned but I'd guess between a strong twin disk and chattering the tires on a loose road course surface its transmitting the shock into the crank and drivetrain.
6) Leverage/material limits.
7) A well balanced assembly . Remember, good and cheap hardly work out. Going to a machine shop that has a great reputation is worth the money. The engine builder also should have ALL the proper tools to check that work and assemble the engine.
8) TScomp uses and builds ALOT of 100mm Manley crank engines . He's tuned/built these cars for awhile and they seem to live well. If the crank was a problem would he continue to run it?
The big crank has its limits like anything else. With good tuning and parts selection it should live a decent life at moderate levels.
FWIW. I've got a Manley billet 94mm, ATI and well balanced assembly thats living well .
These cars are very rewarding if you take the time to research,build them and tune them correctly. Attention to detail always pays off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsional_vibration
Last edited by Abacus; Jul 13, 2017 at 03:37 PM.
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JRally (Jul 13, 2017)
Jul 13, 2017, 02:12 PM
#18
Evolving Member
He uses Billet and I was only speaking on the Forged one for the record. I'd go Eagle before the forged Manley.
But everything you're saying...yes, 100%.
Jul 13, 2017, 06:15 PM
#19
Pretty much why I'd rather hand my engine off to a reputable builder to build my engine. The tools, machinery, and knowledge to build a reliable high horsepower engine are beyond my reach. Some people ask me why I don't build my own engine. Abacus hit the nail on the head with #7.
Jul 13, 2017, 11:10 PM
#20
I'm not trying to call anyone's baby ugly or step on any toes. Take a step back and look at every situation and the facts.
Lets not forget that plenty of people have cracked OEM or other 100mm cranks with power,rpm,detonation or sheer force . Its 14% larger then the stock 88mm crank and deals with more leverage. Everything has its limits.
Bigger stroke is going to increase Harmonics. Here are a few things worth noting.
1) Most people change the crank and they don't add a good dampner (ATI) to help deal with this. The stock dampner is for a stock crank/engine and is over a decade old at this point. A good dampner is going to help any engine with aftermarket rods/pistons of any stroke. Its often overlooked and people want to point fingers at something else. Our engines can easily make 150-250hp a cylinder so everything needs to be looked at. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
2) There has been a tuning learning curve for most over the past decade. If you look back the information is there on timing used,afr and results. The big crank doesn't deal with being rattled like the smaller crank but anything can break. A clean dyno sheet on low smoothing tells the story for the people that know. Ever look at one on high smoothing and its still wavy. Or Jagged? Not how I want my engine to run.
3) Everyone is a tuner and does endless road logs "getting it right" on a single knock sensor with Hobbyist software. This has its draw backs if the engine isn't running good. How accurate is the software, old knock sensor, ignition system barreling down the road? How many people have tuned their stock engine bearings out tuning on their own. Professionals with the right tools and feedback are a worthwhile investment. Or the tuner that runs 35psi on pump gas and is proud of it. Thats careless or not knowing any better. I've seen countless examples
4) Hang a big heavy twin/triple disk that doesn't slip to cause even more stress on the drivetrain. Clutch technology has gotten extremely good and affordable over the years. Something has to give.
5) The RS motors car has broken a few stock cranks IIRC. Its well tuned but I'd guess between a strong twin disk and chattering the tires on a loose road course surface its transmitting the shock into the crank and drivetrain.
6) Leverage/material limits.
7) A well balanced assembly . Remember, good and cheap hardly work out. Going to a machine shop that has a great reputation is worth the money. The engine builder also should have ALL the proper tools to check that work and assemble the engine.
8) TScomp uses and builds ALOT of 100mm Manley crank engines . He's tuned/built these cars for awhile and they seem to live well. If the crank was a problem would he continue to run it?
The big crank has its limits like anything else. With good tuning and parts selection it should live a decent life at moderate levels.
FWIW. I've got a Manley billet 94mm, ATI and well balanced assembly thats living well .
These cars are very rewarding if you take the time to research,build them and tune them correctly. Attention to detail always pays off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsional_vibration
Lets not forget that plenty of people have cracked OEM or other 100mm cranks with power,rpm,detonation or sheer force . Its 14% larger then the stock 88mm crank and deals with more leverage. Everything has its limits.
Bigger stroke is going to increase Harmonics. Here are a few things worth noting.
1) Most people change the crank and they don't add a good dampner (ATI) to help deal with this. The stock dampner is for a stock crank/engine and is over a decade old at this point. A good dampner is going to help any engine with aftermarket rods/pistons of any stroke. Its often overlooked and people want to point fingers at something else. Our engines can easily make 150-250hp a cylinder so everything needs to be looked at. Fail to plan, plan to fail.
2) There has been a tuning learning curve for most over the past decade. If you look back the information is there on timing used,afr and results. The big crank doesn't deal with being rattled like the smaller crank but anything can break. A clean dyno sheet on low smoothing tells the story for the people that know. Ever look at one on high smoothing and its still wavy. Or Jagged? Not how I want my engine to run.
3) Everyone is a tuner and does endless road logs "getting it right" on a single knock sensor with Hobbyist software. This has its draw backs if the engine isn't running good. How accurate is the software, old knock sensor, ignition system barreling down the road? How many people have tuned their stock engine bearings out tuning on their own. Professionals with the right tools and feedback are a worthwhile investment. Or the tuner that runs 35psi on pump gas and is proud of it. Thats careless or not knowing any better. I've seen countless examples
4) Hang a big heavy twin/triple disk that doesn't slip to cause even more stress on the drivetrain. Clutch technology has gotten extremely good and affordable over the years. Something has to give.
5) The RS motors car has broken a few stock cranks IIRC. Its well tuned but I'd guess between a strong twin disk and chattering the tires on a loose road course surface its transmitting the shock into the crank and drivetrain.
6) Leverage/material limits.
7) A well balanced assembly . Remember, good and cheap hardly work out. Going to a machine shop that has a great reputation is worth the money. The engine builder also should have ALL the proper tools to check that work and assemble the engine.
8) TScomp uses and builds ALOT of 100mm Manley crank engines . He's tuned/built these cars for awhile and they seem to live well. If the crank was a problem would he continue to run it?
The big crank has its limits like anything else. With good tuning and parts selection it should live a decent life at moderate levels.
FWIW. I've got a Manley billet 94mm, ATI and well balanced assembly thats living well .
These cars are very rewarding if you take the time to research,build them and tune them correctly. Attention to detail always pays off.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsional_vibration
Jul 17, 2017, 09:25 AM
#21
Hi Sean. Sorry we no longer offer the Manley forged crank anymore due to we have seen a failure from one of our customers. The journal cracked clean in half while the rest of the engine was intact. Thankfully this customer shut his engine off right away and it will be rebuilt by us with a better crank.
Other shops warned us about the Manley forged crank also, but I had to see it for myself before I completely eliminated the product from our engine program.
For forged cranks we will only use Eagle or OEM.
Other shops warned us about the Manley forged crank also, but I had to see it for myself before I completely eliminated the product from our engine program.
For forged cranks we will only use Eagle or OEM.
Jul 17, 2017, 09:35 AM
#22
If you have the money check out Winberg Crankshafts. They have crankshafts for the 4G63. A bit spendy though.
http://winbergcrankshafts.com/
http://winbergcrankshafts.com/
Jul 17, 2017, 01:06 PM
#25
The billet cranks we have not seen fail yet, except for when a customer supplied us with a contaminated valve cover full of bead blasting material from a powder coat place I wont mention. They did not clean the valve cover after doing it, and it was a trap full of debri which ended up spinning a main bearing. After having that crank magnafluxed, we learned it cracked the journal.
This was a billet 100mm manley crank.
We have a bunch of very high HP 2.3's on billet manleys and no issues and they all have one thing in common
1. balanced
2. fluidampr crank pulleys
This was a billet 100mm manley crank.
We have a bunch of very high HP 2.3's on billet manleys and no issues and they all have one thing in common
1. balanced
2. fluidampr crank pulleys
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Kevin Troy (May 28, 2018)
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2006EvoIXer (May 1, 2018)
