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Question on rope method for springs/retainers

 
Old Feb 19, 2018, 06:20 PM
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Question on rope method for springs/retainers

Good evening all,

This is a silly question, but it's stumping me, so I figured I'd come here to ask. Before you say "do the compressor method," I don't have one capable of the pressure needed.

Anyway, when I go to do this rope method, I assume I have to remove the timing belt and retime the engine afterwards right? I say that because obviously rotating the motor probably isn't possible if I have the belt ziptied to the gears after a cam install.

I'm sure I'm missing something here, but my mind has been elsewhere lately, and I'm drawing a blank. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks!
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Old Feb 19, 2018, 07:10 PM
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Remove both plastic covers.
Rotate the engine to tdc.
Zip tie the cam gears to the belt, use at least 3 ties to each, and also zip tie them to each other.
Remove camshafts.
Remove rockers.
Remove plugs.
Fill the cylinders with rope, 1 and 4 will need less, 2-3 twice to three times as much.
Start the sequence of removing the springs.



No need to rotate, although rotating will make things more easy and of less possibility to drop a valve. You still need to use rope no matter the piston being at tdc. Basically the difference here is with the 2 and 3 pistons where you will need to put the same amount of rope as with the 1-4.



Take your time, easy process.









Marios
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Old Feb 19, 2018, 07:23 PM
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Thanks for the reply Marios,

I suppose the reason I'm concerned with turning the motor further is the fact that the prevailing logic is the rope needs to compress against them rather than just letting it fill the cylinder.

I guess I'm just concerned that loosely piled rope won't actually stop anything from falling. What I had thought was that you basically had to do 1-4 and then 2-3 since you'd compress the rope in 1-4 first, and then turn the crank and compress the rope on 2-3 after 1-4 are finished.
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Old Feb 20, 2018, 06:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jmrussell89 View Post
Thanks for the reply Marios,

I suppose the reason I'm concerned with turning the motor further is the fact that the prevailing logic is the rope needs to compress against them rather than just letting it fill the cylinder.

I guess I'm just concerned that loosely piled rope won't actually stop anything from falling. What I had thought was that you basically had to do 1-4 and then 2-3 since you'd compress the rope in 1-4 first, and then turn the crank and compress the rope on 2-3 after 1-4 are finished.


There can be different aspects of logic concerning a matter, what we might think it is the case often is not.

You do not need to compress it, if you put enough rope in there it will keep the valve from falling into the cylinder. It is not a matter of compressing it, it is rather a matter of just an empty space that needs to be filled up to a certain point.


You can also use wire/cable instead of rope.



By not turning the engine, it saves you the trouble of doing the timing, but as I said on my first posts in doing so eliminates ever further the chance of dropping the valve as you have less space to fill.











Marios

Last edited by Evo8cy; Feb 20, 2018 at 06:24 AM. Reason: typo
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Old Feb 21, 2018, 06:25 PM
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I recommend you plan on resetting the timing belt. Rotate each cylinder you are working on to TDC while cam gears are off (you can do cylinders 1&4 at same time and rotate crankshaft once to work on 2&3). You will need to compress the valve springs enough to contact the pistons and break the keepers loose. Be extra careful with timing. Make sure HLAs are all bled before reinstalling cams.
You can try to keep timing settings but that means a whole lot of extra work and you can easily screw up the timing anyway. If you want to avoid resetting the timing belt, I can give you the steps if you don't already know it.
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Old Feb 22, 2018, 08:42 AM
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So then what's the point of even trying to do this while the head is still on? If I'm removing the belt, and redoing the timing, I might as well pull the head off. Not what I want to do. If there's no other way...so be it.
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
I recommend you plan on resetting the timing belt. Rotate each cylinder you are working on to TDC while cam gears are off (you can do cylinders 1&4 at same time and rotate crankshaft once to work on 2&3). You will need to compress the valve springs enough to contact the pistons and break the keepers loose. Be extra careful with timing. Make sure HLAs are all bled before reinstalling cams.
You can try to keep timing settings but that means a whole lot of extra work and you can easily screw up the timing anyway. If you want to avoid resetting the timing belt, I can give you the steps if you don't already know it.






What the **** are you on about ? Which pistons are you going to contact and why? Compressing the springs to get them loose has nothing to do with pistons. It has nothing to do with the valve itself. It is the spring that you compress not the valve. If you push the valve, you can't do it with bear hands, but if you manage to push it using a tool, then the only thing you are going to manage is open the valve and with the piston at tdc you might manage to actually bent it, but it ain't gonna come loose.


Even if he does not bleed the lash adjusters he will not have a problem with anything. I've changed enough sets of cams with lash adjusters untouched. Now if he wishes to clean them and make sure they are all working ok then that's a different thing.



He does not need to re-do timing, if he leaves the cam gears attached to the belt at tdc.





Do not post inaccuracies.











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Old Feb 23, 2018, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by jmrussell89 View Post
So then what's the point of even trying to do this while the head is still on? If I'm removing the belt, and redoing the timing, I might as well pull the head off. Not what I want to do. If there's no other way...so be it.





You do not need to remove the head.

-Rotate the engine to tdc.
-Zip tie the belt to the gears.
-Remove the cams from the gears.
-Remove rockers.
-Remove spark-plugs.
-Fill the cylinders with rope.
-Using a spark-plug socket with magnet inside and a small hammer you can remove the valve springs. Place the socket on to the retainer of the valve, hit it with the hammer a couple of times until the valve spring breaks free. Usually it takes one good hit. The retaining pins will be stuck on the magnet inside the socket.
-Do that for all the valves.




Now comes the tricky part, the compression of the new springs. You need to compress them in a vice and tie them shut with metal zip ties. Do not put the zip tie at the two ends of the spring to tie the springs, as you will not be able to fit the spring in place.Two zip ties per spring. Once you put the spring back on its seat and its retainer with locking pins in place, remove the zip ties.










Marios

Last edited by Evo8cy; Feb 23, 2018 at 12:59 AM. Reason: typo
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 08:17 AM
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Why break head gasket if there's a good seal? New head gasket wouldn't have a good as seal and an old one that has been on it. Many remove head and change head studs at same time. It's up to you how much things you want to replace. And yes, keepers tend to get stuck and stick to retainers. Depending on which spring compressor you use, you may not have enough energy to break them loose.

Originally Posted by jmrussell89 View Post
So then what's the point of even trying to do this while the head is still on? If I'm removing the belt, and redoing the timing, I might as well pull the head off. Not what I want to do. If there's no other way...so be it.
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 08:29 AM
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I've done this.

It takes 2 years to get done.

Just buy a nice 4g63 spring compressor ($50) and have it done in an hour.

But don't pull the head if you have a good HG, it's a waste IMO. Hell, I didn't even use rope.


Originally Posted by Evo8cy View Post
You do not need to remove the head.

-Rotate the engine to tdc.
-Zip tie the belt to the gears.
-Remove the cams from the gears.
-Remove rockers.
-Remove spark-plugs.
-Fill the cylinders with rope.
-Using a spark-plug socket with magnet inside and a small hammer you can remove the valve springs. Place the socket on to the retainer of the valve, hit it with the hammer a couple of times until the valve spring breaks free. Usually it takes one good hit. The retaining pins will be stuck on the magnet inside the socket.
-Do that for all the valves.




Now comes the tricky part, the compression of the new springs. You need to compress them in a vice and tie them shut with metal zip ties. Do not put the zip tie at the two ends of the spring to tie the springs, as you will not be able to fit the spring in place.Two zip ties per spring. Once you put the spring back on its seat and its retainer with locking pins in place, remove the zip ties.










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Old Feb 23, 2018, 09:05 AM
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Don't insult me dude. I did my own install and yes, my keepers were seated enough to stick (guess I was dreaming when I did this and you were there). Compressing the valve springs did not break loose the keepers because the valves moved with the springs. I had 60k miles on my stock head. I had to rotate my pistons to TDC, compress valve springs to where valves touched head. Compressed a bit more before keepers came loose where I pulled valves up with needle nose pliars and use magnet to collect keepers. I can use one of those keeper removers where you hit the back with a hammer, but I didn't want to risk keeper flying across the room or falling into an oil drain and disappearing. This is what I used to compress my springs:



As for bleeding lifters, yes, bleeding lifters is a good idea. Most people will feel better knowing their lifters will adjust and setup on their own instead of leaving it at the setting of old cams and hope they didn't accidentally compress any during install (which will keep the valve from fully closing). It's not that much work so I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal (ego problem?) My personal opinion on bleeding lifters is to make sure my cam caps are torqued properly. I didn't want any lifter pressing up on cam making the torque wrench click early and not getting the full torque. You keep doing what works for you and close your eyes to other people's experience and opinion. And keep acting like you know everything. There are many ways to do things, so keep your insults to yourself. Most of us want the best and what's safest for our own cars since they are our DD, unlike regular mechanics that keep taking their cars apart for fun.
To the OP, this was my experience about 2 months ago. Maybe you won't run into the same problems. Just know that this has happened, so if you get there, you can search for solutions.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ead-first.html

Originally Posted by Evo8cy View Post
What the **** are you on about ? Which pistons are you going to contact and why? Compressing the springs to get them loose has nothing to do with pistons. It has nothing to do with the valve itself. It is the spring that you compress not the valve. If you push the valve, you can't do it with bear hands, but if you manage to push it using a tool, then the only thing you are going to manage is open the valve and with the piston at tdc you might manage to actually bent it, but it ain't gonna come loose.


Even if he does not bleed the lash adjusters he will not have a problem with anything. I've changed enough sets of cams with lash adjusters untouched. Now if he wishes to clean them and make sure they are all working ok then that's a different thing.



He does not need to re-do timing, if he leaves the cam gears attached to the belt at tdc.





Do not post inaccuracies.











Marios
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 09:12 AM
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To avoid resetting timing, you risk dropping keepers into oil drain and it can end up in block or oil pan (if lucky). You will have to be extra careful to keep timing belt tight enough so belt doesn't jump a tooth on crank or oil sprocket. You should find a way to lock the crank so it doesn't rotate on you while working. Be careful trying to compress the rope and keeping timing belt from jumping a tooth and relock crank once comressed. If not rotating to TDC on each cylinder, you will have to be extra careful not to drop any valves in cylinders 2 & 3. It is doable, but tricky. Good luck!

Originally Posted by jmrussell89 View Post
So then what's the point of even trying to do this while the head is still on? If I'm removing the belt, and redoing the timing, I might as well pull the head off. Not what I want to do. If there's no other way...so be it.

Last edited by 2006EvoIXer; Feb 23, 2018 at 09:19 AM.
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 10:17 AM
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OP,

It's not a bad process, but ask your wife to give you a lower back rub after.

The idea behind the nylon rope is to keep the valves from dropping into the cylinders, but also to create a buffer region between the valve reliefs on the piston and the valve itself in order to help break the keepers loose. The keepers are jammed into place over time and might take a few more turns on the valve spring compressor tool to break them loose from the valve stem and retainer. During this time, the valve may contact the nylon rope.

Plan on resetting timing, but don't remove the head. Just take off the timing belt, cams, and cam gears so you don't have to deal with them.

Why? Because you have to rotate the crank manually to slowly push each piston up against the nylon rope after you have shoved as much of it into the cylinder you are working on as possible. If you don't do this, the rope will be doing very little for you.
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by 2006EvoIXer View Post
Don't insult me dude. I did my own install and yes, my keepers were seated enough to stick (guess I was dreaming when I did this and you were there). Compressing the valve springs did not break loose the keepers because the valves moved with the springs. I had 60k miles on my stock head. I had to rotate my pistons to TDC, compress valve springs to where valves touched head. Compressed a bit more before keepers came loose where I pulled valves up with needle nose pliars and use magnet to collect keepers. I can use one of those keeper removers where you hit the back with a hammer, but I didn't want to risk keeper flying across the room or falling into an oil drain and disappearing. This is what I used to compress my springs:



As for bleeding lifters, yes, bleeding lifters is a good idea. Most people will feel better knowing their lifters will adjust and setup on their own instead of leaving it at the setting of old cams and hope they didn't accidentally compress any during install (which will keep the valve from fully closing). It's not that much work so I'm not sure why you're making such a big deal (ego problem?) My personal opinion on bleeding lifters is to make sure my cam caps are torqued properly. I didn't want any lifter pressing up on cam making the torque wrench click early and not getting the full torque. You keep doing what works for you and close your eyes to other people's experience and opinion. And keep acting like you know everything. There are many ways to do things, so keep your insults to yourself. Most of us want the best and what's safest for our own cars since they are our DD, unlike regular mechanics that keep taking their cars apart for fun.
To the OP, this was my experience about 2 months ago. Maybe you won't run into the same problems. Just know that this has happened, so if you get there, you can search for solutions.

https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/ev...ead-first.html




Listen to yourself reading my posts and try to process them the right way. By me stating reality and how things are when you have clearly no idea what your talking about and you use the internet as your guide just to help you post on forums is not an insult, it is a statement of reality, learn to differentiate.

When posting on forums trying to help people one's info must be as accurate and correct as possible.



The tool, the euroexpo one is better, used with the head on the block, one does not need to remove the head, it just saves you the trouble of compressing the springs the hard way. It can be used with the head on the block or without, and that's where the rope comes in. He also needs to buy the tool. I offered a way without having one.





You are also not dropping anything into no oil holes as it goes without saying that one needs to plug the oil holes before removing anything, and even then, if he forgets to do that, the socket with the magnet will get the retaining pins 99%.




There is no actual need to bleed the lifter on a cam change because it is like when an engine has been switched off and stop running, some lifters will be at max expansion some will be at full depression, depending on which rotational point each camshaft has stopped. Obviously when you remove the cams, they will be at full stroke. If you have a clogged bleeder(lash adjuster) and is stuck at max stroke or is not compressing properly you will know which one needs to be bled when you are trying to put the cap on and it will not get bolted into place.




I surely know a hell lot more than you, and I do know everything that is known knowledge and even more that goes on with an Evo or engines in general, but as more things progress and are coming to the light everyday about cars and engines I have much more to learn. Even if I did knew everything about everything there is nothing wrong with that, obviously I do not, and so does not anyone else.





What I said is more than safe and has nothing to do with any risk, now pull you head out of your orifice , stop trying to play it a smart ***, and do not get me going with insults, because you are actually going to hear so many of them, you'll be wishing you haven't posted on this thread.








About the rope comment by the above member(pal215) the whole point of this process is not to have to do timing again. If you use thin rope, or even cable wire, I've used both, you can put enough in there to keep the valve stem extending, it works 100%, and I repeat there is no need to remove the timing belt.
















Marios

Last edited by Evo8cy; Feb 23, 2018 at 11:15 AM. Reason: typos
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Old Feb 23, 2018, 11:14 AM
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Thank you Pal. You wrote it better.
Plan on resetting timing. It's too much work to avoid and may still end up doing it anyway. GL

If this was your 2nd or 3rd time doing this, you can probably do this without resetting. It is a bit tricky as you need to keep timing belt tight and be able to compress rope a little.

Marios can do it but he's experienced. If you try it, it likely won't go as planned. World isn't perfect, attempt at your own risk. GL

Originally Posted by Pal215 View Post
OP,

It's not a bad process, but ask your wife to give you a lower back rub after.

The idea behind the nylon rope is to keep the valves from dropping into the cylinders, but also to create a buffer region between the valve reliefs on the piston and the valve itself in order to help break the keepers loose. The keepers are jammed into place over time and might take a few more turns on the valve spring compressor tool to break them loose from the valve stem and retainer. During this time, the valve may contact the nylon rope.

Plan on resetting timing, but don't remove the head. Just take off the timing belt, cams, and cam gears so you don't have to deal with them.

Why? Because you have to rotate the crank manually to slowly push each piston up against the nylon rope after you have shoved as much of it into the cylinder you are working on as possible. If you don't do this, the rope will be doing very little for you.

Last edited by 2006EvoIXer; Feb 23, 2018 at 11:20 AM.
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