Alignment Specs
Alignment Specs
So I'm getting the car aligned before this weekend and I've heard that a lot of alignment shops don't have the correct info for our cars. what are all the specs for our alignment? anyone know?
And I'm thinking I wanna add some negative camber (maybe 2º or 3º). Sound like a good idea? I track the car occassionally so I want it to perform better there and don't mind paying to have the tires rotated and remounted later on. Also, what about toe? is it worth playing for?
Anyone have some recommendations for making the stock suspension perform the best? (and yeah, I know the best way to do it is to buy coilovers...)
And I'm thinking I wanna add some negative camber (maybe 2º or 3º). Sound like a good idea? I track the car occassionally so I want it to perform better there and don't mind paying to have the tires rotated and remounted later on. Also, what about toe? is it worth playing for?
Anyone have some recommendations for making the stock suspension perform the best? (and yeah, I know the best way to do it is to buy coilovers...)
good man! the more track hounds, the better!
1-
really, the biggest thing is to find a shop that is capable of doing *performance alignment*. your local tire shop almost certainly CANNOT. talk to your local autocrossers or whatever group you're gonna track with. they can tell you who to go to locally. most shops are lucky if they can get camber to match within a tenth of a degree ( -1.5L/-1.6R? hey, great!) that is NOT good enough in this car, IMO. this is a hig performance car, you're talking about going very fast in it. you need someone who knows their ****.
2-
that shop will probably have their own opinion about how to set up your chassis. my recommendation: listen to them. once you've found a place you can trust, treat em like your pit crew. what do you do if your crew chief says he wants to set it up this way, not that? damn right, petter- you try it his way, then tell him how it worked. that's how the team works.
3-
even better, before doing any alignment at all, take it to the track once.
baseline it just like it is. then have your new pit crew set it up. i'm telling ya, tracking once on the factory alignment will give you plenty of ideas for what you want to achieve with a performance alignment. unless you've tracked it once, you have no idea how it actually handles. all the guys who claim the car "pushes like crazy" while tooling around town are tools. it does nothing of the sort, and you won't know till you try it. besides, it's a thrill. the difference in my car between my first track outing on the factory setup, and the next, on my now perfectly aligned, track-happy setup, was the single biggest change and thrill i've gotten, just for the incredible improvement, and the feeling that i knew exactly what had changed and why.
now, all that said, my own experience has been this:
if you're on the stock struts, have them max out the front neg camber as much as they can *while matching numbers on both sides*- they should be able to get -1.5 to -1.8 degrees or so, but the final number isn't as important as getting both sides setup consistently.
rear camber, try -.5 deg. i think it matches well with the 1.5 up front. a hair of toe-in all around helps tracking and wear. some guys will tell you to toe out the front, but i don't think the difference in turn-in response is worth the *highly* accelerated wear, esp on the inside edge with that much camber. if you're gonna autocross, maybe...
my street and track alignment progressed from stock settings on stock chassis, to perf alignment on stock chassis, then added rear sway bar, then h&r springs. tried a couple of different settings since changing springs.
i've found the best compromise between performance and wear to be the settings above, on the stock setup:
front camber -1.5d
rear camber -.5d
front toe-in - .01"
rear toe-in - .01"
(different shops use different measurements, but that's how mine does it)
but don't take the word of some internet douchebag, talk to your crew chief.
1-
really, the biggest thing is to find a shop that is capable of doing *performance alignment*. your local tire shop almost certainly CANNOT. talk to your local autocrossers or whatever group you're gonna track with. they can tell you who to go to locally. most shops are lucky if they can get camber to match within a tenth of a degree ( -1.5L/-1.6R? hey, great!) that is NOT good enough in this car, IMO. this is a hig performance car, you're talking about going very fast in it. you need someone who knows their ****.
2-
that shop will probably have their own opinion about how to set up your chassis. my recommendation: listen to them. once you've found a place you can trust, treat em like your pit crew. what do you do if your crew chief says he wants to set it up this way, not that? damn right, petter- you try it his way, then tell him how it worked. that's how the team works.
3-
even better, before doing any alignment at all, take it to the track once.
baseline it just like it is. then have your new pit crew set it up. i'm telling ya, tracking once on the factory alignment will give you plenty of ideas for what you want to achieve with a performance alignment. unless you've tracked it once, you have no idea how it actually handles. all the guys who claim the car "pushes like crazy" while tooling around town are tools. it does nothing of the sort, and you won't know till you try it. besides, it's a thrill. the difference in my car between my first track outing on the factory setup, and the next, on my now perfectly aligned, track-happy setup, was the single biggest change and thrill i've gotten, just for the incredible improvement, and the feeling that i knew exactly what had changed and why.
now, all that said, my own experience has been this:
if you're on the stock struts, have them max out the front neg camber as much as they can *while matching numbers on both sides*- they should be able to get -1.5 to -1.8 degrees or so, but the final number isn't as important as getting both sides setup consistently.
rear camber, try -.5 deg. i think it matches well with the 1.5 up front. a hair of toe-in all around helps tracking and wear. some guys will tell you to toe out the front, but i don't think the difference in turn-in response is worth the *highly* accelerated wear, esp on the inside edge with that much camber. if you're gonna autocross, maybe...
my street and track alignment progressed from stock settings on stock chassis, to perf alignment on stock chassis, then added rear sway bar, then h&r springs. tried a couple of different settings since changing springs.
i've found the best compromise between performance and wear to be the settings above, on the stock setup:
front camber -1.5d
rear camber -.5d
front toe-in - .01"
rear toe-in - .01"
(different shops use different measurements, but that's how mine does it)
but don't take the word of some internet douchebag, talk to your crew chief.
If you decide to track the car fairly often, I would highly recommend camber plates. I got some Tein plates off ebay for less that 200, and the difference is amazing. Getting rid of the soft upper mounts takes a lot of slop out of the car.
Running about -3.2 camber in the front vs. max stock camber was good for about 5 sec on a 1:35-40 track, plus I got very even tire temps on my RA-1's.
Running about -3.2 camber in the front vs. max stock camber was good for about 5 sec on a 1:35-40 track, plus I got very even tire temps on my RA-1's.
Originally Posted by Joe's_EVO8
Do you have any suspension mods or are you just looking for a more agressive alignment?
Originally Posted by geminix3
good man! the more track hounds, the better!
1-
really, the biggest thing is to find a shop that is capable of doing *performance alignment*. your local tire shop almost certainly CANNOT. talk to your local autocrossers or whatever group you're gonna track with. they can tell you who to go to locally. most shops are lucky if they can get camber to match within a tenth of a degree ( -1.5L/-1.6R? hey, great!) that is NOT good enough in this car, IMO. this is a hig performance car, you're talking about going very fast in it. you need someone who knows their ****.
1-
really, the biggest thing is to find a shop that is capable of doing *performance alignment*. your local tire shop almost certainly CANNOT. talk to your local autocrossers or whatever group you're gonna track with. they can tell you who to go to locally. most shops are lucky if they can get camber to match within a tenth of a degree ( -1.5L/-1.6R? hey, great!) that is NOT good enough in this car, IMO. this is a hig performance car, you're talking about going very fast in it. you need someone who knows their ****.
and yeah, i found a "high performance alignment" shop that knows what they're talking about and is gonna let me meet with their master tech to get everything setup. called a couple alignment shops and they sounded like they didn't know what camber was. $95 is the price, is that a good price or too much? I'm ok with paying a little more to have it done right.
Originally Posted by geminix3
2-
that shop will probably have their own opinion about how to set up your chassis. my recommendation: listen to them. once you've found a place you can trust, treat em like your pit crew. what do you do if your crew chief says he wants to set it up this way, not that? damn right, petter- you try it his way, then tell him how it worked. that's how the team works.
that shop will probably have their own opinion about how to set up your chassis. my recommendation: listen to them. once you've found a place you can trust, treat em like your pit crew. what do you do if your crew chief says he wants to set it up this way, not that? damn right, petter- you try it his way, then tell him how it worked. that's how the team works.
Originally Posted by geminix3
3-
even better, before doing any alignment at all, take it to the track once.
baseline it just like it is. then have your new pit crew set it up. i'm telling ya, tracking once on the factory alignment will give you plenty of ideas for what you want to achieve with a performance alignment. unless you've tracked it once, you have no idea how it actually handles. all the guys who claim the car "pushes like crazy" while tooling around town are tools. it does nothing of the sort, and you won't know till you try it. besides, it's a thrill. the difference in my car between my first track outing on the factory setup, and the next, on my now perfectly aligned, track-happy setup, was the single biggest change and thrill i've gotten, just for the incredible improvement, and the feeling that i knew exactly what had changed and why.
even better, before doing any alignment at all, take it to the track once.
baseline it just like it is. then have your new pit crew set it up. i'm telling ya, tracking once on the factory alignment will give you plenty of ideas for what you want to achieve with a performance alignment. unless you've tracked it once, you have no idea how it actually handles. all the guys who claim the car "pushes like crazy" while tooling around town are tools. it does nothing of the sort, and you won't know till you try it. besides, it's a thrill. the difference in my car between my first track outing on the factory setup, and the next, on my now perfectly aligned, track-happy setup, was the single biggest change and thrill i've gotten, just for the incredible improvement, and the feeling that i knew exactly what had changed and why.
Originally Posted by geminix3
now, all that said, my own experience has been this:
if you're on the stock struts, have them max out the front neg camber as much as they can *while matching numbers on both sides*- they should be able to get -1.5 to -1.8 degrees or so, but the final number isn't as important as getting both sides setup consistently.
if you're on the stock struts, have them max out the front neg camber as much as they can *while matching numbers on both sides*- they should be able to get -1.5 to -1.8 degrees or so, but the final number isn't as important as getting both sides setup consistently.
Originally Posted by geminix3
rear camber, try -.5 deg. i think it matches well with the 1.5 up front. a hair of toe-in all around helps tracking and wear. some guys will tell you to toe out the front, but i don't think the difference in turn-in response is worth the *highly* accelerated wear, esp on the inside edge with that much camber. if you're gonna autocross, maybe...
Originally Posted by geminix3
my street and track alignment progressed from stock settings on stock chassis, to perf alignment on stock chassis, then added rear sway bar, then h&r springs. tried a couple of different settings since changing springs.
i've found the best compromise between performance and wear to be the settings above, on the stock setup:
front camber -1.5d
rear camber -.5d
front toe-in - .01"
rear toe-in - .01"
(different shops use different measurements, but that's how mine does it)
but don't take the word of some internet douchebag, talk to your crew chief.
i've found the best compromise between performance and wear to be the settings above, on the stock setup:
front camber -1.5d
rear camber -.5d
front toe-in - .01"
rear toe-in - .01"
(different shops use different measurements, but that's how mine does it)
but don't take the word of some internet douchebag, talk to your crew chief.
And geminix3, i sincerely thank you for takin the time to write that out. it helps a ton.
no problem, i like talking to people who sound like they're actually thinking about what they're doing.
$95 sounds like a pretty good deal, i've paid much more than that around here, it's harder to align the stock setup than it is after installing camber plates....
that's a very slippery slope, though. as much i agree with the guy above on the benefits of camber plates, changing just one thing on your chassis is just about impossible.
the plates, for example, make the strut sit lower, so they add about 3/8 to 1/2 inch to the length of the strut- your front end is gonna ride that much higher. on the stock springs, that's gonna suck. but in conjuction with my H&R's, which lower the front about .4" more than the rear, they're just about perfect. but now, sitting lower, i get different results from the same alignment- need more adjustment, spend more $$$.... like i said, slippery slope.
and after that first alignment, which transformed it from a sedan into a performance car, every other adjustment has been incremental- taking something good and making it a bit better.
summing up my chassis tinkering to date:
ralliart strut braces, front and rear
perrin 25mm rear sway and adj. endlinks
H&R sport springs
cusco camber plates
... all of which won't drop your times half as much as a good alignment on a set of track tires (toyo RA-1s, kumho v700s, whatever).
let us know how your next track day goes!
rock out-
g++
$95 sounds like a pretty good deal, i've paid much more than that around here, it's harder to align the stock setup than it is after installing camber plates....
that's a very slippery slope, though. as much i agree with the guy above on the benefits of camber plates, changing just one thing on your chassis is just about impossible.
the plates, for example, make the strut sit lower, so they add about 3/8 to 1/2 inch to the length of the strut- your front end is gonna ride that much higher. on the stock springs, that's gonna suck. but in conjuction with my H&R's, which lower the front about .4" more than the rear, they're just about perfect. but now, sitting lower, i get different results from the same alignment- need more adjustment, spend more $$$.... like i said, slippery slope.
and after that first alignment, which transformed it from a sedan into a performance car, every other adjustment has been incremental- taking something good and making it a bit better.
summing up my chassis tinkering to date:
ralliart strut braces, front and rear
perrin 25mm rear sway and adj. endlinks
H&R sport springs
cusco camber plates
... all of which won't drop your times half as much as a good alignment on a set of track tires (toyo RA-1s, kumho v700s, whatever).
let us know how your next track day goes!
rock out-
g++
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Getting in that performance alignment with the stock suspension will do wonders. Just going with max front camber and toe corrections shaved off 2-3 seconds off my average lap times.
I ended up with:
Max camber up front
Zero toe up front
1.5 camber in rear
and 0.18degrees total toe in the rear. Just enough to be safe. I think autox guys run zero toe in rear to help rotation.
You'll love and you're tires will thank you for it.
I ended up with:
Max camber up front
Zero toe up front
1.5 camber in rear
and 0.18degrees total toe in the rear. Just enough to be safe. I think autox guys run zero toe in rear to help rotation.
You'll love and you're tires will thank you for it.
Originally Posted by geminix3
the plates, for example, make the strut sit lower, so they add about 3/8 to 1/2 inch to the length of the strut- your front end is gonna ride that much higher. on the stock springs, that's gonna suck. but in conjuction with my H&R's, which lower the front about .4" more than the rear, they're just about perfect. but now, sitting lower, i get different results from the same alignment- need more adjustment, spend more $$$.... like i said, slippery slope.
and after that first alignment, which transformed it from a sedan into a performance car, every other adjustment has been incremental- taking something good and making it a bit better.
summing up my chassis tinkering to date:
ralliart strut braces, front and rear
perrin 25mm rear sway and adj. endlinks
H&R sport springs
cusco camber plates
... all of which won't drop your times half as much as a good alignment on a set of track tires (toyo RA-1s, kumho v700s, whatever).
let us know how your next track day goes!
rock out-
g++
and after that first alignment, which transformed it from a sedan into a performance car, every other adjustment has been incremental- taking something good and making it a bit better.
summing up my chassis tinkering to date:
ralliart strut braces, front and rear
perrin 25mm rear sway and adj. endlinks
H&R sport springs
cusco camber plates
... all of which won't drop your times half as much as a good alignment on a set of track tires (toyo RA-1s, kumho v700s, whatever).
let us know how your next track day goes!
rock out-
g++
Also, with the 3+ degrees of camber my treadwear on the race tires was DRASTICLY improved.
Originally Posted by Joe's_EVO8
What is max camber up front?
just dropped it off and spoke with the tech. goin for -1.5º camber up front, -0.7º camber in the rear and 0.01" toe in all around. JUST a tad. We'll see how that works.
Originally Posted by Scottybob
I had no change in front height with the Tien camber plates I used.
Also, with the 3+ degrees of camber my treadwear on the race tires was DRASTICLY improved.
About -1.8 degrees.
Also, with the 3+ degrees of camber my treadwear on the race tires was DRASTICLY improved.
About -1.8 degrees.
I hope you mean -3 front camber?
Joe
ok, so i changed my mind and called them back. asked the tech how much negative camber could be run all around and he said -2º up front and -1.5º in the rear. so i decided to change to -1.8º front camber and -1º rear camber. woo hoo, i love toying with things.