$1500 & $2500 coilovers
Nov 9, 2005, 03:11 PM
#31
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Originally Posted by Z1 Performance
fletch - honestly I have yet to see a set that accomplished the desirable features at that price point. Without question, the most versatile units we have ever used are the Zeal's. Their adjustments are meaningful, and they can literally custom spec a set with user defined spring rates, valving, etc etc. They are expensive relative to their competition, but far less than the motorsports level stuff (Moton, Penske and the like, which tend to not be streetable units). Given their performance, both in street and track conditions, their versatility, and their US prescence, we feel they are a tremendous value.
As for spring rates, there is alot that goes into ride quality than just the spring rate - it needs to be matched to the damper valving (both compression and rebound valving), overal piston diameter, tires, tire pressure, wheels, rideheight, alignment settings. The worst thing you can do is company "X" coilover with rates of 5kg/5lg for example to a totally different set than has rates of 8 kg/8 kg.
On a purely personal note, I have not had good luck with lower priced units and either performance and/or longevity. For all the marketing hype I read about the R&D that went into the units, or about how they will stand the test of time, experience has taught me to go with what has proven itself. I realize that comes off as "elitist" to some, but believe me, it's not. I've fallen victim to it myself over the years - the lure of a cheap price is often too strong to resist. Over time, I've realized that waiting to get the right item out of the box is FAR les aggravating and far less expensive in the long run. This is the type of product where if you ask 10 people what their favorites are, you are likely to get 11 answers. But, if someone can deliver a low priced unit that performs well and lasts, they will have a winner.
I would be eager to try a set of the PIC, as well as some of the KW units on a local car and put them through the paces
As for spring rates, there is alot that goes into ride quality than just the spring rate - it needs to be matched to the damper valving (both compression and rebound valving), overal piston diameter, tires, tire pressure, wheels, rideheight, alignment settings. The worst thing you can do is company "X" coilover with rates of 5kg/5lg for example to a totally different set than has rates of 8 kg/8 kg.
On a purely personal note, I have not had good luck with lower priced units and either performance and/or longevity. For all the marketing hype I read about the R&D that went into the units, or about how they will stand the test of time, experience has taught me to go with what has proven itself. I realize that comes off as "elitist" to some, but believe me, it's not. I've fallen victim to it myself over the years - the lure of a cheap price is often too strong to resist. Over time, I've realized that waiting to get the right item out of the box is FAR les aggravating and far less expensive in the long run. This is the type of product where if you ask 10 people what their favorites are, you are likely to get 11 answers. But, if someone can deliver a low priced unit that performs well and lasts, they will have a winner.
I would be eager to try a set of the PIC, as well as some of the KW units on a local car and put them through the paces
Adam,
drive an evo with Muellerized buddy clubs. You will be convinced on the performance end, if not the longevity end. Best 2300.00 you can possibly spend on the evo.
Percy
Nov 9, 2005, 03:15 PM
#32
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I'd love to, believe me...but seems John's stuff tends to be a bit "localized" in terms of the users - makes sense since he is hands on with his setups, but I don't know anyone out this way who has them
Perhaps when Tommy's car is back on the road I can try it out - I believe he still has the Meuller JIC's in his car from the USCC
Perhaps when Tommy's car is back on the road I can try it out - I believe he still has the Meuller JIC's in his car from the USCC
Nov 9, 2005, 03:34 PM
#33
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PIC needs to set Adam up with a set of coilovers so he can really give them an objective test. I know PIC wants to break into the North American market so let's get Adam some coilovers, he is open minded, sells many different brands etc.
Let the testing begin!
Let the testing begin!
Nov 9, 2005, 05:00 PM
#34
I'm sure we can arrange something. I'd like to see a side-by-side (by side if possible, the more the better) comparison performed between our coilovers and others on the market. But it should be done in a somewhat controlled situation, which is tough to acheive. I've been contacting Grassroots about it but they haven't been responsive to the idea.
If it can be arranged to have an experienced driver test our coilovers against others on a roadcourse, or auto-x, I'm all for it. It would be similar to what we are doing with our Honda line of coilovers, down at Carolina Motorsports Park next next weekend at the WTDR event. We've got a guy testing our Apex coilovers against some others in the market, including a set of Ohlins, on his EG around the track. Word is we're getting some pretty serious drivers down there, including some of the Honda Challenge guys, so I'd like for them to do some driving as well. In any case, its about as controlled and unbiased as we can hope for without formal testing procedures in place.
You are right though, we've got our sights set on the NA market. Everyone all over the world follows the performance trends of NA (contrary to what the JDM fans will think), and for good reason IMO. But NA is so different from other countries in terms of preferences, it becomes a tough place to compete (for many other reasons as well). Take for example Malaysia and Australia: two other countries that have a fairly large market for aftermarket performance parts. Our products sell extremely well over there, but here its a much different story, even though the product is virtually the same.
If it can be arranged to have an experienced driver test our coilovers against others on a roadcourse, or auto-x, I'm all for it. It would be similar to what we are doing with our Honda line of coilovers, down at Carolina Motorsports Park next next weekend at the WTDR event. We've got a guy testing our Apex coilovers against some others in the market, including a set of Ohlins, on his EG around the track. Word is we're getting some pretty serious drivers down there, including some of the Honda Challenge guys, so I'd like for them to do some driving as well. In any case, its about as controlled and unbiased as we can hope for without formal testing procedures in place.
You are right though, we've got our sights set on the NA market. Everyone all over the world follows the performance trends of NA (contrary to what the JDM fans will think), and for good reason IMO. But NA is so different from other countries in terms of preferences, it becomes a tough place to compete (for many other reasons as well). Take for example Malaysia and Australia: two other countries that have a fairly large market for aftermarket performance parts. Our products sell extremely well over there, but here its a much different story, even though the product is virtually the same.
Last edited by PIC Performance; Nov 9, 2005 at 05:11 PM.
Nov 10, 2005, 06:54 PM
#36
Yeah that sounds right. I imagine its starting to get real frigid on LI right about now. 
And I don't remember there being any real good tracks (or any tracks at all, for that matter) near LI. You'd have to go out to the Poconos I guess? Or Limerock.
Anyhow, yeah whenever you are ready, let me know.
And I don't remember there being any real good tracks (or any tracks at all, for that matter) near LI. You'd have to go out to the Poconos I guess? Or Limerock. Anyhow, yeah whenever you are ready, let me know.
Nov 10, 2005, 07:35 PM
#37
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no tracks on LI since Bridgehampton We are at Limerock all the time, as well as pretty much every other track on the east coast in season. We run 2 ITS BMW's (E30 and E36), as well as assist on a World Challenge E46, so are familiar with lots of tracks, as well as what it takes to properly set a car up. Looking forward to trying 'em out!
We are at Limerock all the time, as well as pretty much every other track on the east coast in season. We run 2 ITS BMW's (E30 and E36), as well as assist on a World Challenge E46, so are familiar with lots of tracks, as well as what it takes to properly set a car up. Looking forward to trying 'em out!
Nov 10, 2005, 08:35 PM
#38
Sweet deal!
Where are you guys located on LI? I have the very very faintest recollection of a Z-something based in LI, but this was from like 5 or 6 years ago. I want to say I heard about them in or around Bayside.
Where are you guys located on LI? I have the very very faintest recollection of a Z-something based in LI, but this was from like 5 or 6 years ago. I want to say I heard about them in or around Bayside.
Nov 11, 2005, 10:32 AM
#40
I have a question about tuning your coilovers. What is it exactly that you mean by tuning them? I would assume adjusting the damping setting on them.?. I would have to think that there isn't just one setting that would work. Only reason that I say this is that I autocross and I know there is not one setting that would work for every corse. I am constantly have to adjust my settings. Granted I have the Tein RA's and maybe it is different for the Higher end products. Yes I know they are a monotube but for the price I couldn't bet it.
Are you all adjusting the ride height as well?
thanks
Are you all adjusting the ride height as well?
thanks
Nov 11, 2005, 02:43 PM
#41
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PIC - Sorry, I didn't realise you built coilovers. It would be awsome to have another vendor on hand who's goal is to provide quality coilovers at the kind of pricing that is available in other segments of the market. I can't wait to her how things work out!
Ride22 - Tuning a coilover isn't super overly complicated, but it takes a bit of time and paitience. Gernerally I first dial in the ride height, corner balancing and alignment. Having those three items set as a baseline are essential if you're serious about fast cornering. Next I generally pick the damper setting I expect to use most of the time and then work on adjusting the spring preloads till the car is behaving the way I like. After that I may fine-tune the damper settings and pre-load again if needed.
Since my Evo spends alot of time on the street, I generally tune with the dampers set fairly soft and just stiffen them at the track. If I was trying to be competitive, I would dial the car in with the firmer damper settings needed at the track and then live with a bit lower ride quality on the street.
As far as using different setting for different courses, unless you have alot of experience with car set-up and are a very consistant driver, I would shy away from all the changes. Personally I find I'm faster knowing the limits of one suspension set-up over trying to learn a new tune every time I hit the track. Just a thought.
Ride22 - Tuning a coilover isn't super overly complicated, but it takes a bit of time and paitience. Gernerally I first dial in the ride height, corner balancing and alignment. Having those three items set as a baseline are essential if you're serious about fast cornering. Next I generally pick the damper setting I expect to use most of the time and then work on adjusting the spring preloads till the car is behaving the way I like. After that I may fine-tune the damper settings and pre-load again if needed.
Since my Evo spends alot of time on the street, I generally tune with the dampers set fairly soft and just stiffen them at the track. If I was trying to be competitive, I would dial the car in with the firmer damper settings needed at the track and then live with a bit lower ride quality on the street.
As far as using different setting for different courses, unless you have alot of experience with car set-up and are a very consistant driver, I would shy away from all the changes. Personally I find I'm faster knowing the limits of one suspension set-up over trying to learn a new tune every time I hit the track. Just a thought.
Nov 11, 2005, 04:04 PM
#42
I didn't mean to jack this thread, but I did..so here goes.
Why do I adjust the damper? I find that on autocross courses that depending on the surface of the track will decide how stiff I go. If the course tends to be loose I will go for a softer setting as to combat that type of surface. A lot of the parking lots that we use tend to be bumpy, so I would use a softer setting in that case as well.
Am I going at this the wrong way? If so, I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks
Brian
Why do I adjust the damper? I find that on autocross courses that depending on the surface of the track will decide how stiff I go. If the course tends to be loose I will go for a softer setting as to combat that type of surface. A lot of the parking lots that we use tend to be bumpy, so I would use a softer setting in that case as well.
Am I going at this the wrong way? If so, I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks
Brian
Nov 11, 2005, 04:26 PM
#43
Interestingly enough, almost all of the auto-xers that we've talked to with adjustable dampers found one setting for front and rear, and keep it at that for all the auto-x's they go to. This *seems* to be the norm, but of course we haven't talked to every auto-xer out there.
I think it might be due to the fact that auto-x courses are so short and tight in general, that you generally don't run into too many issues with high-speed piston damping, as most of piston speed will fall in the low-speed range. So they can go as stiff as they like without worrying about harshness of ride (relatively speaking; also, depending on the coilover and car setup, full-stiff is not always optimal for a number of reasons).
I'd suggest playing around with the settings on the same course one day, and seeing how your times change. If you softening the damping does in fact drop your times (all other factors remaining equal), then it looks like you've got the right idea. But based solely on what I've seen, auto-xers have one setting they like for auto-x work, and the rest of the levels are reserved for crappy streets and possibly road courses (where there are more damping issues to worry about than just pitch and roll).
Erioshi: Not a problem. We were going at the same issue from different angles, but I believe we touched on similar points. These sorts of issues should definitely be explored and discussed in more detail and such conversations shouldn't be reserved only for the super high end stuff, because certain things are innate to a "good" coilover and shouldn't be skimped on just because of price.
I think it might be due to the fact that auto-x courses are so short and tight in general, that you generally don't run into too many issues with high-speed piston damping, as most of piston speed will fall in the low-speed range. So they can go as stiff as they like without worrying about harshness of ride (relatively speaking; also, depending on the coilover and car setup, full-stiff is not always optimal for a number of reasons).
I'd suggest playing around with the settings on the same course one day, and seeing how your times change. If you softening the damping does in fact drop your times (all other factors remaining equal), then it looks like you've got the right idea. But based solely on what I've seen, auto-xers have one setting they like for auto-x work, and the rest of the levels are reserved for crappy streets and possibly road courses (where there are more damping issues to worry about than just pitch and roll).
Erioshi: Not a problem. We were going at the same issue from different angles, but I believe we touched on similar points. These sorts of issues should definitely be explored and discussed in more detail and such conversations shouldn't be reserved only for the super high end stuff, because certain things are innate to a "good" coilover and shouldn't be skimped on just because of price.
Last edited by PIC Performance; Nov 11, 2005 at 04:30 PM.
Nov 13, 2005, 02:03 PM
#44
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PIC Performance,
I'm considering a suspension upgrade that will make my car handle better in HPDEs. The only thing holding me back at this point is the price I need to pay for a widely adopted, quality coilover package. The entry level ones people race with are $2,000. While this would be a low risk purchase (because they have been used successfully by others) it is an expensive one.
I'm interested in your coilovers but I don't want to be the guinea pig. I need something that, without a doubt, is going to work well on the Evo. A low price is a plus but since I'm not buying these for looks, performance takes priority. Any thoughts?
I'm considering a suspension upgrade that will make my car handle better in HPDEs. The only thing holding me back at this point is the price I need to pay for a widely adopted, quality coilover package. The entry level ones people race with are $2,000. While this would be a low risk purchase (because they have been used successfully by others) it is an expensive one.
I'm interested in your coilovers but I don't want to be the guinea pig. I need something that, without a doubt, is going to work well on the Evo. A low price is a plus but since I'm not buying these for looks, performance takes priority. Any thoughts?
Nov 14, 2005, 11:04 AM
#45
At this point we don't look at initial buyers and users as guinea pigs at all, in that testing has already been performed, and the performance has been deemed more than good enough for them to be released for public use.
I can understand your concern though, coming from the consumer's side, in that the only people that have used them so far are PIC. In which case, I provide to you with as close to solid numbers-type proof as I can get (shock dynos), the type of components we use, and our word that this is the best possible coilover that we are able to manufacture and release for the consumer to use on their Evos.
If you can wait, we are working on setting up a long-term evaluation of sorts, which we hope will shed some light on the product and answer questions related to their performance and usability. I understand someone's hesitation to simply take our word for it, along with a few numbers and graphs and pictures though.
I know that price has become a big concern for those shopping for coilovers due to the huge price range that various coilovers are offered in. I'll assure you that our products being more affordable than comparable products has had little effect on their performance relative to others'. Again I can't expect everyone to take the word of a new and small company such as PIC Performance. Yours questions will be answered in time. Feel free to drop me (or us) a line if you have more urgent concerns.
I can understand your concern though, coming from the consumer's side, in that the only people that have used them so far are PIC. In which case, I provide to you with as close to solid numbers-type proof as I can get (shock dynos), the type of components we use, and our word that this is the best possible coilover that we are able to manufacture and release for the consumer to use on their Evos.
If you can wait, we are working on setting up a long-term evaluation of sorts, which we hope will shed some light on the product and answer questions related to their performance and usability. I understand someone's hesitation to simply take our word for it, along with a few numbers and graphs and pictures though.
I know that price has become a big concern for those shopping for coilovers due to the huge price range that various coilovers are offered in. I'll assure you that our products being more affordable than comparable products has had little effect on their performance relative to others'. Again I can't expect everyone to take the word of a new and small company such as PIC Performance. Yours questions will be answered in time. Feel free to drop me (or us) a line if you have more urgent concerns.