chrono,
wait a minute... in the post #29 you made a blanket statement towards all DMS tarmac shocks: 'They are a rally company trying to get into road racing with a limited R&D budget so instead of making proper Road/Tarmac spec valving they are pushing their rally valving'. But then now (post #30) you are clearly stating that you have not seen the dyno plots for the tarmac 50mm DMS's.

Have you actually seen the valving for tarmac DMS shocks? Please clarify for us.

n

 

Hi Nils, I've seen the ones Robi posted here: https://www.evolutionm.net/forums/at...chmentid=82146

I'm curious to see if there is a higher resolution or more evolved version (that would show some on going development is taking place). Also notice how incredibly different these are to the DMS 40's (which is my whole point that I am getting flamed on BTW). Which is right which is wrong? The 50s have very traditional curves on them and would be ok on the track but would be harshish on the road. The 40s would be too soft on the track and road and be harsh on high speed bump inputs (great for gravel grip and landing jumps, hmmm).

The other reason I call them rally shocks not road race shocks is their use of progressive springs (not just the dampening curves).

There is some serious contradicting going on here and it's not from me

 

i know exactly where your coming from. ive read every suspension thread on this site. your a cocky geek from boulder that thinks his **** doesnt stink. sure, all in fun i know. but youve managed to **** me off over the internet. pretty hard to do. now, as for your low speed argument, yes pitch and roll are considered low speed, but your overexaggerating it trying to make it seem like the bottom of that shock dyno is where the shock is opperating at. HHHAAAA. im fairly new to this and i know better than that. BTW, your STILL talking about whats best for the best handling situation. this thread that I started is about the best all around shock. ive ridden in BMW's with DMS's, ive talked to many people with them, they all love them and the car i rode in and drove was VERY surefooted. ive also driven on moton's and Ohlins, and truthfully, while yes they handled great too, id say i surely wouldnt use the moton's and i liked the ohlins, but i didnt see or feel a reason why theyre 600-1k more expensive. id say the latter of the two systems were almost too twitchy. all your really arguing is that progressive valving is not street worthy and that digressive is the god of all valving. so, how about, for everyone on this entire site, you post up actualy facts, backed up by charts, real test results, ect. rather than saying one person or another is wrong and your right? i mean, you havent even given credit to anyone who uses DMS and has allot of success with them. if you want to go into who's company is better, i could go and say vishnu is a crappy company for a number of reasons that are all reletively backed by fact. its simple, i dont believe anything on these forums until someone can prove something. just cause its what most of the industry uses doesnt mean there arent other good or better ways to do it. i havent even seen a single shock dyno posted by you. SHOW ME. dont just talk. thanks and i look forward to your response.

 

ok, so you have not actually seen the valving or clear dyno plots on the DMS 50mm tarmacs? yes or no?

also, DMS Mark asked this from you in another thread that you did not address:
'Chrono, still waiting for your dyno chart to post that demonstrates that you can effectively dampen a 600lb range of ERS springs with ONE type of valving?'

care to show this to all of us?

While we are at it, I have another question (purely out of curiousity)... is the help you get from CSU government or privately funded?

Not 'attacking' you here, just trying to figure out where you are coming from

thx,
n

btw - I just clicked off a 1:49 lap at SMMP 2.2 config in my DMS 50 street car on dot-r radials.... something is working there, I know, I know.. evil & misleading (but true) propaganda

 

Sorry you are as worked up as you seem to be and second mention of how bad people are who come from Boulder which itself is a pretty telling statement. Don't assume you know me BTW I would never presume to do that to anyone, know one is that simple. You say you are new to this but you are so sure what I am saying is BS

You are from Fort Collins Right? How about I take you to CSU and show you the hundreds of dyno graphs we have made with the EVO's Ohlins and show you the DMSs we've dynoed the Tiens the Jics the Penskes the Motons etc.etc. You can even ride in my car.

I am not going to post up our dyno charts so that they can be copied. It has taken us a year of constant testing to get there. Heck RRE makes you sign non-compete documents before setting up your car, this is intellectual property (though you don't seem to think I possess any intellect ).

The shock spends ~80% of it's time in the low speed area (ever seen a shock histogram?), low speed is everything as far as handling goes, mid and high speed are for bumps!

One last point, the Ohlins are much cheaper the the DMS 50s.

 

Nils just the link I posted, it's pretty clear.

with the Shock spread you just turn the clicky thingy

The CSU stuff is mutual, I don't get paid I just help them learn by testing different things for them and giving feedback. Along the way I learn as well

Nils I would never think you're attacking BTW you're too sharp for that

Your lap times are good (assumed, I never been there, but I trust you) but who's to say you couldn't have run a 1:48 on a different set-up? Its not what works and what doesn't... it's what works best.

Please everyone remember I got my self into this flame fest because DMS started proclaiming that their solution was the best and started making-up reasons that that was true. I and John from RRE sat back as long as we could. If you want to buy into the DMS doctrine fine but realise it goes against everyone else in professional road racing (but what do they know).

 

ok, I failed to see the post where Mark or Robi said DMS is the best over any other system.

please show me post.

thx,
n

 

I Love the internet! Seriously Paul is offering up measurable data, well researched testing and lap times. He has done his homework. He does this as a living. As an engineer I see eye-to-eye with what Paul says.

The rest is just "internet wisdom".

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/me/mot...E_Services.htm

 

What's the point Nils semantics? It's implied everywhere. That is not what I am fighting for here, it's why they think they're better;

1. That what I say I do is not feasible for them so it can't possibly be true (I am full of BS evidently).

2. That progressive springs are "the go" in road racing (though no pro team use them).

3. That beginners don't want low speed dampening because it makes the car easier to drive (DMS 40). The 50s have loads of lowspeed (experts only!)

there are others but these three are the real issues (for me at least)

 

that is the point.. 'implied' means nothing in this weird world of forums.

I'll leave this alone now.

n

 

no Nils it's not the point at all and that's just a total cop out. I imply we're best Mark implies he's best ad nauseum (how many simultaneous suspension posts do we currently have ). I have laid out why I think we are now...

I want him to answer my previous three points.

Lets be productive

 

boulder is a few square miles surrounded my reality man. it produces people who unsuprisingly act like you have. (no offense) whether or not your like that outside of the internet who knows, its just the internet.
now, your last few sentences were what i was looking for. after re-sifting through your posts about suspension, 95% were bashing DMS and the other 4.9% was selling your product but not explaining much. (gross exaggeration, so what) i have seen a histogram and i actually have a few right in front of me. not for any of the products in question here but theyl work. a fellow board member on another site is the resident "shock snob" as he likes to call himself, and does all of his own dyno's and other testing. his findings on his histograms is that while driving around town, you do spend a large majority of the time using mostly low speed damping. through mountain roads and auto-xing on semi-rough pavement (he did specify that) however he said *mostly* only under initial weight transfer does the shock use its low speed, and then hangs around its midspeed damping. so, from his findings and from what i know or understand, the DMS's would actually work well for daily driving and opccasional performance driving. and he said so to me earlier today. keep in mind, hes a BIIGGG supporter of Hotbits, so hes very unbiased about other shocks. another thing, you keep using the DMS 50 mil as your camparison. were not talking about that here. thats damn close to a race shock. if i were given a choice between ohlins, moton, penskie and 50 mil's id choose the 50 mils cause theyre cheaper than the super high end, and have much more appealing features to me than ohlins. i understand your hiding your findings and intellectual research, i think it would be quite hard to copy shock design soley off of a shock dyno but thats your game not mine. i am in fortcollins, and im an ME student here at CSU. id actually love to sit in on a test session you do up here. that would be quite interesing and im sure i could use that info. i still do not like the way you have expressed yourself however, and i am unimpressed with the way you promote your business. change my mind, PM me with your reasons and findings and any info you think is relevant. i look forward to it.
Ryan

 

Who got called names for demanding the truth and for pointing out contradictions?

Do you want to answer why no low speed is supposedly ok on the 40's (for beginners) but the 50's have plenty of low speed. Doesn't your shock guy think that's odd? has he ever seen a rally shock dynoed (hint: the curves look similar to the 40's).

I am not attacking DMS I am going after and stubbornly demanding explanations for contradictions. I have not personally attacked anyone period but they sure have attacked me without answering any questions or proving me wrong.

This is not about "my business" it's about their business practices (how else can I put it?)

Your shock guy has it backwards BTW the initial movement is in the higher end of low speed and then it settles into very low speed or no speed (steady state). By definition low speed is everything driver inputs do to the car (no matter how aggressive), mid speed is pavement undulations and high speed are bumps, jumps, curbs etc.. There is a bit of variation on this but not much. Some will say that a super hard transitions get into mid-speed for instance. In either case the DMS 40 curves are too soft on the low speed (IMHO of course!)

 

i understand where you are coming from, really, but if you do believe that they are misrepresenting a product or its functions, then please, enlighten me as to why with proof . i am not saying i dont believe you, or them, or anyone at this point really. ive talked to numerous sources and it seems everyone has their own answer. bottom line is you all know more about suspension than me (hence why im asking you guys for suggestions) so give me some facts and good information to work with. see what i mean? but you all kinda come off like your just trying to sell another set of coilovers... the shock guy who i have talked to has seen rally dyno's, as he is actually a rallyer. which, i didnt think about before, is probably why he doesnt have as much of a problem with DMS's tuning path as you seem to. i think i didnt explain what he told me right. i mixed the low vs mid speed damping. his email says something to this tune: While agressively driving, you wont see very much high speed damping unless you are driving on broken or rough roads. a properly set-up suspension will use a shocks ability to dampen mostly durring turn-in and corrections. otherwise, a balanced car should be relying more on the setup as a whole mid-turn, and thus will be easier to drive and perform better overall because its easier to drive. so, to me, that means with everything doing what its supposed to, less rely's on the dapming mid-turn than at corner entry. which to me seems to say that having less low speed is ok for a sorted suspension. is this at all true, and would it create a more civil, yet still balanced car? remember, thats what i am looking for, thats what this thread is about.

 

Guy above. PLEASE use the "return" key and separate your thoughts into paragraphs like a REAL college student - you are killing my eyes.

Chrono is giving you proof, he is using his brain to correctly read graphical data. And like he is saying, nobody has a fact based answer to explain why you wouldn't want low speed dampening.

Lets think. You input a load on your suspension by turning the wheel (hard turn in we'll say). If you have small values for your low speed dampening what is going to happen with this ramped , from zero input. I'll tell you NOT MUCH DAMPENING = if you have high spring rates than you are driving a pogo stick, if you have low spring rates you are in for a world of body-roll. And I agree with Chrono... sounds like a rally suspension where they use body roll to an advantage to flick the car sideways.

Honestly this is no longer a discussion of what suspension is the best, because that is too difficult of a thing to establish with the interweb. What happens is people make BS, non factual claims. Then people with actual knowledge see the BS and pull the flag. Repeat in a circle and you have the "web".